Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a moped instead of a motorized bicycle

37 posts / 0 new
Last post
Danga
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 1 month ago
Joined: Friday, May 29, 2009 - 09:26
Points: 14
Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a moped instead of a motorized bicycle

Hello fellow electric vehicle owners,

I live in Chandler, AZ and have owned an XB-500 since the beginning of the year and have used it to get the 5 miles to work since (except when it was out of commission for repairs) and it has worked pretty well. A few months after I got it I got pulled over and the officer immediatly asked why it did not have a license plate and I presented her with a copy of Arizona's statute 28-2516:

**********
28-2516. Motorized electric or gas powered bicycles or tricycles; definition

A. Notwithstanding any other provision of this title:

1. A certificate of title is not required for a motorized electric or gas powered bicycle or tricycle.

2. Registration is not required for a motorized electric or gas powered bicycle or tricycle.

3. Vehicle license tax is not imposed on a motorized electric or gas powered bicycle or tricycle.

4. A motorized electric or gas powered bicycle or tricycle is exempt from the provisions of section 28-964 relating to required equipment on motorcycles and motor-driven cycles and from the provisions of title 49, chapter 3, article 5 relating to vehicle emissions inspections.

5. A driver license is not required to operate a motorized electric or gas powered bicycle or tricycle.

6. A motorized electric or gas powered bicycle or tricycle may use rights-of-way designated for the exclusive use of bicycles.

7. A motorized electric or gas powered bicycle or tricycle is not subject to chapter 9 of this title.

B. This section does not prohibit a local authority from adopting an ordinance that regulates or prohibits the operation of motorized electric or gas powered bicycles or tricycles, except that a local authority shall not adopt an ordinance that requires registration and licensing of motorized electric or gas powered bicycles or tricycles.

C. For the purposes of this section, "motorized electric or gas powered bicycle or tricycle" means a bicycle or tricycle that is equipped with a helper motor that has a maximum piston displacement of forty-eight cubic centimeters or less, that may also be self-propelled and that is operated at speeds of less than twenty miles per hour.
**********

She said she would check it out and if it cleared I could be on my way otherwise I was getting a ticket, she sounded confident I was getting a ticket. So I waited about 10 minutes and then she came back, gave me my ID and the copy of the statute back, had me demonstrate the pedals actually work and then I was on my way. She even thanked me for educating her afterwards which really made me respect her. I also REALLY wish I would have made a note of her name and badge number so in the future if I had problems with other Chandler police I could contact her to prove she had already checked out I was legal.

Fast forward to tuesday of this week. So I am at the stop light that is on the same corner as the office building I work at and am waiting for the light to change so I can cross the street and a Chandler police car pulls up behind me, I just got that feeling he was going to stop me but I wasn't worried since I already went through this and was cleared I was legal. The light changes, I cross the street with patrol car right behind me and I turn on my left turn signal to turn into the parking lot at my office and the siren and lights go on.

Immediatly after the officer gets out of the car he asks why I don't have a license plate and I explain it is a motorized bicycle and does not require one, he scoffs at that and asks for my drivers license and I only have an ID which I hand him (he did NOT like I didn't have a drivers license and then asked if I have any warrants/etc which I said no). Well he comes back after about 10 minutes and says he is waiting to hear back from someone at HQ. At this point another officer had shown up, apparently I was a danger to society because this other officer did NOT show up because he could clear the matter up, he just showed up to "help out" in some other way. One officer said he didn't mind waiting since he is paid hourly, I explained I am not paid hourly but I still am missing work and my boss came outside and I pointed him out to the officer and waved which the officer did not seem to like. Gotta love seeing tax dollars used to keep the public safe especially with all the kidnappings, killings, etc and other crimes that go on DAILY down in the Phoenix area.

So now I have to hear about how my XB-500 can't be legal and that I must think I am really smart but am not smart because if it was legal every person with a suspended license as well as anyone under 16 would already own one to get around. One of the officers even said something like "jeez, if this was legal I would get one to save having to pay for registration, insurance, etc", they also joked about how they could sell them to people getting DUI's at the bar up the road and become rich. I informed them that it did not even travel faster than 20 mph so how is it any different then riding a non-motorized bicycle and he responded with something like "because you actually have to pedal the bike". I don't know how needing to pedal keeps the public safer but I just did not respond.

I had to take a lot of heckling and after 45 minutes a "head traffic officer" showed up who kept looking for a motor cc rating even though I explained about 10 times that it is an electric motor that does not have any cc rating on it (he claimed all electric motors are supposed to be marked with a cc rating?). I kept expalining that I seemed to be legal under the motorized bicycle statute since I never go over 20 mph and he said I was beating a dead horse and then went on to say the MVD would probably classify it as a moped because there is a conflicting statute that states a moped is a vehicle that can be human powered that travels at 25mph and under, so my claim that it did not go over 20mph fits that classification since it says "25mph and UNDER". He would not accept that the new motorized bicycle statute that was passed in 2007 made my XB-500 classify as a motorized bicycle and NOT a moped.

Eventually they let me go after threatening me that if they see me on it again they would confiscate it and see me in court. I even heard them trying to calculate how much money they could make off me giving me a ticket and havign to pay the $150 a day impound fee which would probably be for at least 30 days until I could get to court (I don't know if that is true). They were all confident a judge would rule it is not a bicycle but instead a moped and then I could be charged with hundreds if not thousands in fines/court costs.

So here is the AZ state statute 28-101 which includes the definition for a bicycle/tricycle:

**********
6. "Bicycle" means a device, including a racing wheelchair, that is propelled by human power and on which a person may ride and that has either:

(a) Two tandem wheels, either of which is more than sixteen inches in diameter.

(b) Three wheels in contact with the ground, any of which is more than sixteen inches in diameter.
**********

Well my XB-500 has two tandem wheels and both have diameters greater than 16 inches (not a WHOLE lot bigger but still bigger) so I appear to fit the definition of bicycle if I were to not have an engine. Now it does not state whether or not "wheel" means tire and rim or just rim, I would think if they meant not including the tire they would say rim though, can anyone clear this up?

Even if wheel size does not include tire then I think I would be covered and legal under a Chandler city code as a "toy vehicle". Here is the relevant part of the Chandler code from Chapter 12 (Chandler has no codes for mopeds OR motorized bicycles so this is the closest thing):

**********
12-1. Definitions.

Vehicle, for the purposes of this chapter, shall be construed to embrace any means of transportation made use of in any way whatsoever for such transportation, including, but not limited to, automobiles, motorcycles, motor scooters, bicycles, trailers, wagons and carts.
Alleys are defined as any right-of-way for vehicular traffic in the City where the dedicated right-of-way is twenty-four (24) feet or less.

Motorized play vehicle means a coaster, scooter, any other alternatively fueled device (excluding battery operated toy carts designed for children under the age of eight (8) years to ride in or on) or other motorized vehicle that is self-propelled by a motor or engine and which is not otherwise defined in A.R.S. Title 28, as a "motor vehicle," "motor-driven cycle" or "motorized wheelchair."
**********

So if the XB-500 were not to be classified as a bicycle due to the rim not being greater than 16 inches then it appears the city would view it as a "toy vehicle" since ARS Title 28 does not define it as a "motor vehicle," "motor-driven cycle" or "motorized wheelchair" and a toy vehicle also does not require licensing, registration, or insurance. The only downside to this classification is the code states toy vehicles cannot be driven on roads with posted speed limits over 35mph and there is one road I take to work that is 45mph but it has a bike lane which I use, so I don't know if because it has a bike lane that means I can use a "toy vehicle" in it.

Can anyone help me? Especially anyone who may also live in Arizona and has had to deal with police that want to classify motorized bicycles as mopeds even though the state law says otherwise? I am pretty upset I spent hundreds of dollars on my XB-500 and have put a lot of work into it only now to be threatened by Chandler police who have nothing better to do than harrass me and say they will take the XB-500 away if they see me on it again.

Thank you very much for any responses, they will be most appreciated!

robert93
robert93's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 12:28
Points: 240
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Since the cops have threatened you, I'd say contact the state DMV, and a local judge that hears the city police traffic cases, and get official rulings for both, then contact the city attorney, and advise them of the officer's conduct, and comments, then go see the cheif of police, present the rulings from the DMV, and the judge. Given the conduct of the officers, it may be worth looking at the police certifications for the state, and inform that certifications group of the conduct. An officers job is not to interpret or create the law, they are to inforce existing codes and laws. In the case of percieved conflict of the moped/bicycle laws, the bicycle laws were probably written after the moped laws, and should have included ammendments to the moped laws to add exclusions for the electric/gas assisted bicycles. (State legislature has to fix that) I know I've listed a lot of people to talk to, but with unprofessional conduct from officers like that, you have to be on solid ground legally. Once you have a winning list of clearances, contact the district attorney's office and let them see the bike, the rulings, and make sure he doesnt want to prosecute any future tickets in light of the clarifications, and write a letter/note to such effect. That might slow down any gung ho officers thinking of writing a bogus ticket. Good luck, and always be nice and courteous, even if you have to sue them at the same time. Okay, thats the full adversarial approach, you may want to start with a friendly talk with the chief of police and see if escalation is needed from there.
Oh, before federal HR 727 gets dragged in, that law is set as a federal minimum, and yeilds to more restrictive state/local laws. It merely sets a federal minimum in absence of states making note of them.

sixpax2k9
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 1 month ago
Joined: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 22:54
Points: 285
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Although I live in Florida, I believe this info may help you a bit....

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/7340-laws-e-bikes-florida-look-here

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

PzlPete
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 4 months ago
Joined: Monday, June 22, 2009 - 08:38
Points: 157
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

I live in Scottsdale AZ and was stopped by police while riding my 700Li on the way to work. My situation was almost identical to yours...I was on the sidewalk of a very busy street and just turning into the parking lot. I did not have the pedals on. Big mistake. He did let me go with just a warning but later had an officer call to explain the Arizona rules to me.

Basically this is what he said. If the 700Li is "capable" of exceeding 20mph...and the website says "20+" then it is a moped. I pointed out to him that the law actually says "operated above 20mph" and he had no interest in listening to that. When the phone conversation ended 20 minutes later, I gathered that if he ever saw me going over 20mph in the bike lane, he would ticket me. I emailed the DMV with pictures and descriptions of the bike and they emailed me back saying no registration was required.

So here is my strategy. 1) keep the pedals on. 2) Stay off the sidewalk unless absolutely necessary 3) take a long route to work that has very very little traffic or patrol. 4) Carry the AZ Statute you refer to. 5) Carry a copy of the email from the DMV.

Does that guarantee I won't get a ticket? No. But it is about the best I can do and still save the planet.

robert93
robert93's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 12:28
Points: 240
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

28-2516 7.B Stinks, it allows a local county/city/ect. to ban globally, or just per street the use of e-bikes, or even ban them from use in legit bicycle lanes+ -- NOT good! means you have to check county by county ect. major pain! (and somewhat rediculous) As a southerner, I hate to admit it, but there really are advantages to uniform laws of the land, as long as those laws are fair to all, that is.
If you have to absolutely stay inside the law, that means NO mods to improve performance/power. If anything look into having it regulated down to 18.5-19.5 unassisted. Of course then, you could be impeeding traffic and creating a danger by speed differential to traffic, no win there.

marylandbob
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 months ago
Joined: Monday, June 22, 2009 - 12:24
Points: 524
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

I wonder why you do not have a drivers license? Did you ever have one? If so, what happened to it? (I ask this because of the officers statements, relative to the bar, etc.) It seems as if this officer has it in for anyone operating any powered/assisted vehicle without drivers license/tags/insurance. If he was able to access any adverse information regarding your past, that may have had a bearing on his attitude. I advise consulting with a localn lawyer, if other attempts, such as writing the DMV and/or local chief of police, do not resolve the issue.(You will want answers in WRITING, on proper department letterhead, in case you have to present them to an officer, or in court)-Bob

Robert M. Curry

sixpax2k9
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 1 month ago
Joined: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 22:54
Points: 285
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Well, considering a stock xb-600 wont truely go over 19mph I dont see how a 500 would. The speedo on the bike is highly inaccurate!!! Using a GPS or bike computer etc. you should average ~19mph at 48V and ~24mph at 60V. It DOES seem that that officer does have a complex though, as did the one that stopped me. After 4 months my tickets were finally dismissed. If I get stopped again, and I get ticketed, I DO plan to get a lawyer and sue. It would clearly be a case of harassment. Depending on the state as well, riding the e-bike on a sidewalk using anything other than pedal power is highly illegal. I am guessing you may be in my ordeal, no license because of a DUI, in which case the officer could be looking for any reason to nail you. (guessing this because of the bar comment etc.)

I do agree, if you can, get to the DMV in person if you must and get a WRITTEN ruling on the bike for that county.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

robert93
robert93's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 12:28
Points: 240
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Yes, sidewalks can be a touchy area. In Ga, if you are over 13, you are not supposed to ride a bicycle on the sidewalks at all on any bicycle-its illegal, but again, so is suicide, which cycling on some Ga roads is a good start to. I myself am legally blind and cant get a license to drive a car. Today i got cut off on my ezip trails as some idiot dove for a front row parking space with no signal. I like the added apparent mass a scooter style has to it- a little more visually present.

hguido1
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 15:00
Points: 216
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

I think some of the problem is the fact that these bikes look like mopeds. If you look at most of the laws on mopeds they say that it can't go over 30mph and the motorized bike laws say 20mph. So when you take one of these bikes that clearly looks more like a moped than a bicycle you get potential for problems because the only difference really is the speed. So police think they are mopeds and you have to some how prove that it isn't. If you have lost your license for some reason and the officer picks that up it becomes even harder for you to have them listen. I have a cyrstalite phoenix racer on a giant mountain bike that will do over 35mph but it really is a true bicycle with helper motor. So it probably would get less attention from the police when riding if I am not speeding, where a the xb-600 looks like a moped that doesn't have a license plate. Giving reason for officer to stop.

After reading some of the stories posted I think a true bike with a hub motor added would be easier to have if not having a valid driver license is the issue. I also think that not having a license plate on something that looks like a moped is a problem when riding. If you have modded your xb-600 and it goes over twenty then it is probably going to be seen as a moped. That would give the officer a reason to write a ticket for no registration and no driver license. Although I am not sure how the officer would go about testing the bike to figure that out.

sixpax2k9
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 1 month ago
Joined: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 22:54
Points: 285
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Just wanted to add this note.....

One of the MAIN REASONS you get pulled over is for not having a license plate on what looks like a moped.
Save yourself some hassle...... Search the internet for a "bicycle" license plate. I found a site that had customizable plates that look VERY much like a real florida motorcycle/auto tag. The officer told me he saw and followed me because I did not have a tag on the bike.

So go out and get ANY KIND of a plate and mount it on the back. One person on here even got one that was from like cuba or something saying "bandit".

O and on the note of testing, I have a "hidden" push-button that engages the xb-600s built in governor limiting it to 19mph.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 15:00
Points: 216
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

sixpax, I had a turbo switch but not now because of 72v. Has your bike ever been tested by the police? How are you doing your hidden turbo? Mine was just a switch to turn off a battery but like I said can't do it because of LVC on controller now.

marylandbob
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 months ago
Joined: Monday, June 22, 2009 - 12:24
Points: 524
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

To "DANGA"--You failed to respond to my earlier question regarding the possibility that the police are "going overboard" in trying to stop you from riding, due to past events. Was there anything that they may have details about, that may be influencing their actions against you? This does NOT give them the right to try and "Make up new laws" or interpret the law as they see fit, but if there is a past incident, be sure to discuss this possibility with a lawyer! Good luck, and ride safely,-- Bob Curry.

Robert M. Curry

sixpax2k9
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 1 month ago
Joined: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 22:54
Points: 285
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

sixpax, I had a turbo switch but not now because of 72v. Has your bike ever been tested by the police? How are you doing your hidden turbo? Mine was just a switch to turn off a battery but like I said can't do it because of LVC on controller now.

I simply have a push button switch in line with the 2 gray wires in the dash (the limiter with a dial to adjust it). I took 1 screw from under the dash and installed the switch without the red button on it. Almost impossible to see let alone know it is a switch or what it does.

I dont mean to make my bike technically illegal, but I actually feel it is more of a safety issue. It is very hard to keep up with traffic and have been almost run over several times by those 20 ft high trucks!!!! besides, even with 60V the max speed i ever get is 26mph down a hill, it averages about 22mph. I hardly think 2mph is grounds for a completely literal interpretation of the law..... Not to mention, having 5 batteries power the lights etc. gives me more distance when riding at night.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 15:00
Points: 216
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

sixpax, how does the gray wire circuit work on the xb-600. Is it wired into the stock controller to limit current? I didn't see any additional wires hooked up from the stock controller when I switched it out. Will it work with an aftermarket controller like mine? I would like to use this circuit with a push button for same reasons you stated above. If I am understanding what you stated you installed the push button in one of the screw hole that supports the dash?

Danga
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 1 month ago
Joined: Friday, May 29, 2009 - 09:26
Points: 14
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Thank you all for the responses and sorry for the delay but I was having a problem posting. I definitely did not plan to ride the bike again until I have something in writing, I have contacted the MVD and am waiting to hear back from them and I also plan to get something in writing from the Chandler PD who I originally contacted before I purchased the XB-500 and was told it was fine to drive without license/registration/insurance/etc (I definitely wish I would have gotten that in writing but I had just made a quick phone call since I didn't think I would have the troubles I am now having). I also like the idea of contacting a city judge and also the city attorney so I will most likely be doing that as well. I definitely have always been nice and courteous to all of the officers involved, this last run in it definitely was hard though since it felt like they were trying to provoke a response out of me and I definitely should not have been treated like I was.

The information from Florida is interesting, I am going to be taking a closer look at that information for sure, thanks for the link. If anyone on here from Arizona has any court documents I would love to see those as well.

PzlPeter, your information is very useful as well. I think you are now safe from the "moped" classification though because the website lists the speed as 20mph now instead of 20+mph. I hope I can get an officer to spend some time to look into my situation like that officer who called you did and hopefully they can send me all the details in writing so I can carry it with me. I like your strategy but after the officer threatened to take my bike away I definitely am not going to risk anything until I have concrete proof of where I stand legally. Good luck up in Scottsdale with your 700Li!

I also agree with robert, 28-2516 stinks, it does nothing to protect from a city/county/etc passing an ebike ban or severe restrictions. Luckily my city has not yet passed anything that is ebike specific, but it sure is a worry. I have modded my bike but I can change it back to non-modded in about 2 seconds and the unmodded top speed is 16mph so I could always just cruise around at that slow speed once I get clearance to get back on the road, I wouldn't mind the slow speed in order to just be able to drive it again.

Marylandbob, I lost my license about 4 years ago and it was back in IL for a DUI charge where I got pulled over after having a few too many with my best friend the night before he left to leave for Iraq. Basically I made the STUPID decision to drive and left the bar and got pulled over not long afterwards, there was no crash or injuries or anything like that. I was younger and made a mistake which will never happen again because I have matured a lot and have not had any run ins with the police since (other than the stops on my XB-500), in fact I should be getting my license back in the next couple of months actually so it isn't like I am some habitually bad driver or anything like that (I have only had one other ticket in my life and it was a BS speeding ticket for about 5mph over). Since that charge happened in IL I am not even sure the officer would be able to see the reason my license was suspended, but maybe that was what prompted some of the comments. I agree with you that I need to get responses from the MVD, police, etc in WRITING, I also think I may try to contact a lawyer as you suggested if I do not get anywhere with my other points of contact.

Thanks again for the responses so far and also for anymore that may show up here, it helps a lot!

satwatcher
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 1 month ago
Joined: Saturday, March 7, 2009 - 10:52
Points: 2
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Very interesting thread. I live in Mesa, a city adjacent to Chandler and so can really use this information. I have an XB-600 and use it in addition to my two cars. My daughter (no license) was once riding it and got pulled over (by DPS, I think). She pulled out HR 727 which I keep with it and that was enough to allow her to continue. I initially took off the pedals because they actually do interfere with operation and make it difficult to lock up to a rack but after reading all this I think I'll put them back on. Oh, and I'll stop riding on the sidewalks!

So sad that folks get hassled about all this due to the inconsistencies and contrariness of all the different statutes.

Oh, I've had so much fun on my XB-600 that I've convinced myself to get a gas scooter one of these days. I recognize I'll have to go through the whole registration, insurance, and motorcycle endorsement but figure that's worth it in order to go a little bit faster and a little bit further.

jegan
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 1 month ago
Joined: Monday, October 19, 2009 - 15:50
Points: 2
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

My daughter drove the XB-500 in Modesto, California. She was pulled over and had to go to court where the commissioner decreed that the bike was street legal without registration and no license was needed as per California vehicle code. That didn't stop the Modesto police from pulling her over and hassling her anyway. Apparently, they felt that the authority of the 1st officer was threatened so continued to pull her over as a means of siding with their buddy. Each time, they had to call the HQ and speak to the officer on duty to clear up the issue. (And cops wonder why the public doesn't support them..Duh!)

My daughter moved to Roseville in the Sacramento area and picked up a DUI. She now needs the bike again. To touch on a subject mentioned earlier, there is no prohibition regarding a person with a DUI on record driving a regular bike and therefore as the electric bike meets the standards of bicycle, there should be no issue with her riding it. In fact, as she has to attend meetings and perform community service etc, there is no sensible means of her traveling to attend.

To eliminate the issue that she dealt with in Modesto, I drove down to the police department and dropped off a copy of the sales brochure and California vehicle code and typed up a document to be signed by the Head Traffic Officer, which is essence said "The Dept has reviewed the brochure and vehicle code and we accept that this e-bike is considered a bicycle under Calif vehicle code and no license or registration is required." Great idea. Unfortunately they would not sign the document and stated that they could not guarantee that she would not be pulled over or cited for riding the vehicle. I did get one concession though. The officer did agree to call my phone and leave a message (which was transcribed by Google Voice) saying that they agreed the E-bike is considered a bicycle ...etc etc and as long as she wore a helmet and obeyed traffic laws, she should not have any issues.

I printed that voicemail with the officer's name and the two prior mentioned documents and they are in a ziplock bag under the seat. With California's financial mess, the DMV is shutting down an additional 1 day a week. The likelihood of them providing anything would be negligible.

At this point, if she gets pulled over, I'll have her go to the County free legal aid department and discuss it with the on site attorney with the intention of going to court to finalize the issue and then I'll pay an attorney who is versed in the issue to provide a 'letter of intent'. We will then follow through and sue the City of Roseville.

Life is too short to be dealing with City officials that feel their job is to screw with people rather than assist them.

John B. Egan

sixpax2k9
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 1 month ago
Joined: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 22:54
Points: 285
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

sixpax, how does the gray wire circuit work on the xb-600. Is it wired into the stock controller to limit current? I didn't see any additional wires hooked up from the stock controller when I switched it out. Will it work with an aftermarket controller like mine? I would like to use this circuit with a push button for same reasons you stated above. If I am understanding what you stated you installed the push button in one of the screw hole that supports the dash?

There are 2 gray wires tie wrapped together in the dash. they are NOT connected when sent from the factory. Connecting them enables the limiter. Perhaps it is in line with the throttle? I never looked. Anyways, when u connect them it limits the speed. There is a little dial circuit board wrapped in a black plastic and tie wrapped, this is the dial to adjust the speed it is limited to. I have the switch in line with these gray wires and a simple on or off of the switch enables it.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 15:00
Points: 216
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

There are 2 gray wires tie wrapped together in the dash. they are NOT connected when sent from the factory. Connecting them enables the limiter. Perhaps it is in line with the throttle? I never looked. Anyways, when u connect them it limits the speed. There is a little dial circuit board wrapped in a black plastic and tie wrapped, this is the dial to adjust the speed it is limited to. I have the switch in line with these gray wires and a simple on or off of the switch enables it.

Ok, I thought maybe it was hooked to the controller, so I was worried that it could damage my aftermarket controller.

Rocky Romero
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 10 months ago
Joined: Friday, August 14, 2009 - 17:34
Points: 32
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Oh, I've had so much fun on my XB-600 that I've convinced myself to get a gas scooter one of these days. I recognize I'll have to go through the whole registration, insurance, and motorcycle endorsement but figure that's worth it in order to go a little bit faster and a little bit further.

I also enjoy the XB-600 and it brings back the feel (momentarily) of my Kawasaki 1100. Those days of riding at 100 miles/hr are over. I'm content with what I have with the constraints of living in a city.

I've also considered something faster, still within the EV family. However, I have further constraints of hi-rise living, elevator dimensions, and unsettled neighbors to contend with. This has limited my options and contained my desire to the XB-600.

I have not had issues with police authorities in the city and I'm prepared to be respectful and comply with any nuisances that may come up.

Further, with winter coming up, my riding activities will be shorter and less frequent.

I commend those here that have paved the path for the rest of us to enjoy our EV experiences.

I truly feel that we are at the beginning stages of a transportation shift that will minimize the gas polluters, at least in the city.

gushar
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 2 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 - 12:53
Points: 361
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Well, here I see the mention again of the "gray wires." Dave, are you saying that the limiting circuit actually has a "dial" on it under that wrap? I ask this because when this limiter subject came up a couple of years ago on here I tested mine...plugged and unplugged...with some fairly accurate testing and there was absolutely no difference either way. Mine remains plugged and I get the 20mph+ on the flats under power just as would be unlimited. So either some of our xb600s have this device and it's not working when plugged and other's have it and it does limit when plugged...or, the placebo effect kicked in and many just think it is limiting the power. Has anyone actually tested it with power meters, etc. to see if it is really limiting power? I'm not saying anyone is necessarily wrong about this. Maybe mine just doesn't function at all for whatever reason and that's why I never had any "limiting" even with the gray wires connected. I wouldn't want any limiting and so that's why I state this. I've been riding now for over two years and I can assure anyone that at least on my xb600 it has no effect whatsoever with those two gray wires connected or disconnected.

Gus

Gus

sixpax2k9
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 1 month ago
Joined: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 - 22:54
Points: 285
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Well, here I see the mention again of the "gray wires." Dave, are you saying that the limiting circuit actually has a "dial" on it under that wrap? I ask this because when this limiter subject came up a couple of years ago on here I tested mine...plugged and unplugged...with some fairly accurate testing and there was absolutely no difference either way. Mine remains plugged and I get the 20mph+ on the flats under power just as would be unlimited. So either some of our xb600s have this device and it's not working when plugged and other's have it and it does limit when plugged...or, the placebo effect kicked in and many just think it is limiting the power. Has anyone actually tested it with power meters, etc. to see if it is really limiting power? I'm not saying anyone is necessarily wrong about this. Maybe mine just doesn't function at all for whatever reason and that's why I never had any "limiting" even with the gray wires connected. I wouldn't want any limiting and so that's why I state this. I've been riding now for over two years and I can assure anyone that at least on my xb600 it has no effect whatsoever with those two gray wires connected or disconnected.

Gus

I am telling you for a fact. The gray wires, when connected, enable the limiter circuit. If you follow those gray wires, one will lead to something that is covered in black plastic and tie wrapped on the ends. If you cut the tie wraps and slide the plastic out of the way, you will find a little circuit board. If I am not mistaken it is some kind of a variable resistor/diode combo. The reason you realized no difference is probably because this dial is all the way clockwise to its maximum speed. I have tested and re-tested this circuit. Riding the bike while using a little screwdriver to adjust it back and forth. You can adjust it anywhere from pretty much no limit(at 48V at least), to like 10-15mph. I would guess it works by adjusting the signal that the throttle is sending to the controller to tell it how fast to go.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

hguido1
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 15:00
Points: 216
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

Guys,

I will be hooking this circuit up in the next few day and I will post my results. I have already swapped out the stock controller for an aftermarket one, so if it limits the speed of my XB-600 it will have to be limiting the throttle and not the controller.

robert93
robert93's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 12:28
Points: 240
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

NO offense intended, but could this please be followed up in an appropriate thread? It will make it easier for it to be found later by others.

hguido1
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 - 15:00
Points: 216
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

NO offense intended, but could this please be followed up in an appropriate thread? It will make it easier for it to be found later by others.

You are exactly right robert93, I will post my results in a new thread about this often talked about gray wire circuit.

tableround
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 2 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, August 11, 2010 - 05:11
Points: 3
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

I used to live in Ohio and was pulled over four times in two summers - once at the beginning and once at the end. I was good friends with the mayor and city safety director, thus I had the officer(s) call the CSD and I was on my way. I finally had enough and bought 5 XB-500s and sold them to the mayor's parents and two friends. I was not pulled over again (Ohio allows for electric bikes with less than 500watts and has operable pedals and travels less than 20mph to be a bicycle).
Speed up to our move to Michigan. In Michigan the XB-500 is a moped, needs a Driver's license and costs $5/year for tags - no insurance or taxes needed on the XB-500.
In Ohio, I contacted a lawyer who didn't charge for the consult and was ready to take my case to court if I ever a. got a ticket, b. was harassed again.
I did the same in Michigan who researched the matter and found MI laws clearly classifies electric bikes as mopeds - even though I notice a lot of electric bikes without the sticker - but I'd rather follow the law than have issues later (it's only $5).
I don't know what AZ laws are - or how often they change, but I would contact a lawyer and have them fully research the matter. Then with his/her assurance then you would know someone has your back.

Dauntless
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 5 months ago
Joined: Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 16:20
Points: 220
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

>. . . .and he said I was beating a dead horse. . . .

1. Dead horses are not supposed to be police officers, but then so many of these people in uniform are not supposed to be. Years ago the Orange County Sheriff's Department arrested one of their own to extradite to his home state on the outstanding warrant they should have known about when they hired him. . . .

> Apparently, they felt that the authority of the 1st officer was threatened so continued to pull her over as a means of siding with their buddy.

2. I DOUBT the Modesto PD was organized enough to have this harassment campaign. Probably there was a briefing where possibly your very case was explained so they'd know to NOT try to write your daugther a ticket again, but those dead horses didn't get it and thought they were being told about a crime wave threat to humanity and they were supposed to pull over every mafioso on a scooter they saw and give him a damn fine ticket, next thing you know 'Operation Crackdown' is underway. A bright shining example of WHY dead horses are not supposed to be police officers. But if you really believe there's a harassment campaign against you, you take your OFFICIAL WRITTEN complaint to the county sheriff, the highway patrol, etc., they outrank the city cops and are SUPPOSED to step in and put an end to it. But of course they'd pretend the whole time it hever happened. But people don't do that, so the problem continues. . . .

3. As someone who was going to be a police reserve before I had a leg injury, I can tell you they are TRAINED that "NO good cop needs a violation to write a ticket." Now hold on, they're also taught that acting on that is a crime. Hmmm. But the concept is that they intend you to be menaced into silence at the time a bogus ticket is written and that you feel helpless and just pay it, so he gets a "Stat."

4. Here's where it gets fun. Everyong THINKS that the laws are what is on the books. Heh heh. As Arlo Gutherie would say, you can be "Hung down, brung down, hung up, and all
kinds o' mean nasty ugly things." You can read up on all kinds of terms such as "Agency Law," where public agency policy takes on the force of law. Arizona PD declares that the XB-500 is NOT a motorized bicycle and you are now required to be registered. Arizona CHP does not make that declaration, therefore they can't write you on it, but Arizona PD, working with the same set of laws, made the declaration and they can write you up, even though it is illegal for them to do so. Interesting, eh? It's a matter of public policy that your scooter that the legislature made legal is then made illegal buy a few cops standing around in a parkling lot giving you attitude. I know of one guy right here by me that has indeed gotten around on an electric bicycle since his DUI.

5. Back that up with "Case Law," where they can PROVE you're not the only one to receive that ticket, that others have just paid the ticket instead of fighting it. . . . (Do you see where this is going?) I like to say (Well, I don't LIKE it but I'm quick to say) that you go to traffic court because you're accused of getting a ticket. Is that your signature on the ticket? That's your name. The court finds you guilty of being pulled over and written up.

This all adds up to it being well and good that your soccter is legal and you've done nothing wrong, but you're dealing with people who seem to be led by the 'Son of Sam,' and all they can hear is that voice saying "I need BLOOD, Davey." The state legislature is a long way away while you're dealing with this, dealing with something else. And they follow 'Son of Sam' too.

They don't call it the 'Fairness Center,' they call it the 'Court SYSTEM.' Right or wrong, it's about maintaining their own little rackets, and they'll break whatever eggs they have to. All the while, telling themselves they are engaging in some obscuredd "Greater Justice." If they let every innocent person go just because they went to court, look at all the fine money they'd lose. Funny, mankind did just fine without the courts for millenia. Volunteer lynch mobs accoumplished the injustices at no cost just fine, with people being far less afraid than they are of dishonext cops and word game judges that are costing us a fortune. But they console themselves taht some higher order is served with their victimisation of so many innocent people whenever they endure the soul's dark night.

As someone mentioned, 'And they wonder why we don't support them.' Supporting them would be beating a dead horse. . . .

WHo dares, WINS!!!!

jdrider78
Offline
Last seen: 10 years 3 months ago
Joined: Saturday, August 21, 2010 - 20:26
Points: 13
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

One thing you can do is get a bicycle license tag at the police department. I did that with my XB 610 in case I get pulled over and just point at the sticker and I'm on my way. I went Monday to my station and they where impressed with the bike. I had the officer check the bike over and record the serial number. In fact 2 of them came out and inspected the bike. I even moved the bike back and forth To show them the pedals worked. They just said we'll take your word for it. I just wish most officers where as lenient as they are here. Also it helps to have a cousin who is the afternoon Sargent when you get off work if they pull you over and hackle you. Which hasn't happened yet! I would encourage you guys to get a bicycle license sticker tag after its been inspected. Also this way if your bike is stolen the police do have a record of it

Dauntless
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 5 months ago
Joined: Thursday, May 27, 2010 - 16:20
Points: 220
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

But are your pedal registration laws even more murky? When I was going to add a moped kit to a bicycle, I decided to first register the bike. I found out that my city no longer had bicycle registration. The PD was emphatic that I absolutely could not get a ticket in my city. But just a few miles in each direction is the city limits, and 6 other citys that border us. So what was my real status running around on an unregistered bike?

California does not have statewide registration, but if a city or county wants to require it, the state gets $2. I am finding that there are some cities mandating this, such as: "City of Berkeley Municipal Code Section 14.68.020: It is unlawful for any person to operate or use a bicycle or motorized bicycle in the city which has not been registered and licensed in accordance with Section 39002(a) of the Vehicle Code of the state. (Ord. 4957-NS § 4, 1976)."

I assume if I went on some 500 mile bike trip I'd pass through numerous cities with such laws. I notice some CSU and UC colleges offer free bike registration, but I'm not finding it for the school in my town. Hey, if the city doesn't require it, they might not bother.

The short version of the fees that can be charged: New bicycle license and registration, four dollars ($4) per year. Transfer of registration, two dollars ($2). Replacement two dollars ($2). Renewal two dollars ($2) per year.

Meanwhile, any fine issued to a bicyclist shall not exceed $10. I assume that includes drunk cycling. I've know people who won't drive downtown to drink, but they'll ride bikes.

V C Section 39000 Bicycle Defined
Bicycle Defined
39000. "Bicycle," for the purposes of this division, means any device upon which a person may ride, which is propelled by human power through a system of belts, chains, or gears having either two or three wheels (one of which is at least 20 inches in diameter) or having a frame size of at least 14 inches, or having four or more wheels.

V C Section 39001 Licenses and Registration Forms
Licenses and Registration Forms
39001. (a) The department shall procure and distribute bicycle license indicia and registration forms to all counties and cities which have adopted a bicycle licensing ordinance or resolution. Those counties and cities shall issue the indicia and registration form to the owner of any new bicycle, and may, upon request of the owner, issue an indicia and registration form to the owner of any bicycle which complies with Section 39007.

The department shall charge and collect a fee, not to exceed the cost of procuring and distributing the license indicia and registration form, for each bicycle license indicia and registration form issued. All fees collected pursuant to this section shall be deposited in the Motor Vehicle Account in the State Transportation Fund. Those fees are hereby continuously appropriated from the account for use by the department to defray costs to procure and distribute the bicycle license indicia and registration forms.

(b) The director shall design the bicycle license indicia and registration form described in subdivision (a), and shall establish procedures for the distribution of the indicia and registration form to counties and cities. The indicia shall be adhesive, durable, flexible, and of a size to permit it to be affixed to the front of the seat tube of the bicycle frame. Each indicia shall bear a unique license number and shall be permanently assigned to a bicycle. Each registration form shall comply with Section 39005.

(c) Bicycle licenses shall be renewed uniformly throughout the state on January 1 of the third year following the year of registration. Renewal of a bicycle license shall be indicated by a supplementary adhesive device affixed parallel to, and above or below, the indicia, with the expiration date showing.

V C Section 39002 License Requirement
License Requirement
39002. (a) A city or county, which adopts a bicycle licensing ordinance or resolution, may provide in the ordinance or resolution that no resident shall operate any bicycle, as specified in the ordinance, on any street, road, highway, or other public property within the jurisdiction of the city or county, as the case may be, unless the bicycle is licensed in accordance with this division.

(b) It is unlawful for any person to tamper with, destroy, mutilate, or alter any license indicia or registration form, or to remove, alter, or mutilate the serial number, or the identifying marks of a licensing agency's identifying symbol, on any bicycle frame licensed under this division.

V C Section 39004 Fees
Fees
39004. Each licensing agency, by ordinance or resolution, may adopt rules and regulations for the collection of license fees. Revenues from license fees shall be retained by the licensing city or county and shall be used for the support of such bicycle ordinance or resolution, and may be used to reimburse retailers for services rendered. In addition, fees collected shall be used to improve bicycle safety programs and establish bicycle facilities, including bicycle paths and lanes, within the limits of the jurisdiction.

The fees required to be paid pursuant to this division are as follows:

(a) For each new bicycle license and registration certificate, the sum shall not exceed four dollars ($4) per year or any portion thereof.

(b) For each transfer of registration certificate, the sum shall not exceed two dollars ($2).

(c) For each replacement of a bicycle license or registration certificate, the sum shall not exceed two dollars ($2).

(d) For each bicycle license renewal, the sum shall not exceed two dollars ($2) per year.

Amended Sec. 4, Ch. 277, Stats. 1999. Effective January 1, 2000.

V C Section 39011 Fines Limitations
Fines: Limitations
39011. No fine imposed for any violation of an ordinance or resolution, which is adopted pursuant to this division, shall exceed ten dollars ($10).

WHo dares, WINS!!!!

robert93
robert93's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Thursday, August 13, 2009 - 12:28
Points: 240
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

At that point, laws of residence come in to play. If the city you reside in does not require registration, then you are clear, unless the county you reside in does. In such case you would need to register at the county seat enforcement/licensing area. Somewhere along the lines, common sense has to prevail in law .... (turns pages muttering "somewhere.... somewhere......" )

Deputydaves
Deputydaves's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 3 months ago
Joined: Friday, February 5, 2010 - 08:54
Points: 70
Re: Police in Chandler,AZ trying classify my XB-500 as a ...

u just got out of court in PA And I was guilty of no registration for my 700Li. I'M PISSED!,IRATE.ETC,ETC. WTF! Just before I can here to this forum is to write to my governer this is redicuious. the locals think they are the SUPREME RULERS of their land and no one is above them that is &#%&! Now I have to appeal to a higher court which will cost another $57 non refundable proccessibg fee and who knows how much money I must spend and how many courts I will traverse to prob
ve that the federal law superceeds local laws. shouldn't this be the responsibility of someoneelse to prove me wrong not me trying to prove my innocence.may be I should start a fund and ask for contributions for the cause. If we got enough in this 'pot' we could help other people for court costs they incounter. anyway I'll keep uoy informed.
Dave C. Stout

Dave C. Stout
STOUT PRODUCTIONS
Low Carbon Products

Pages

Log in or register to post comments


Who's online

There is currently 1 user online.

  • flapjacksbestof

Who's new

  • F177
  • ecosavesolar
  • ghome121
  • Alt_rides
  • mourad96

Customize This