New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

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Chintzel
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New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Hello,
I just got a used Pacelite HCF 707 scooter for cheap (150 bucks) but it has some issues. The main problem is that I cannot find any documentation for the thing. I think the wiring is screwed up and have no idea how the batteries, etc are to be hooked up. Second, when I did try to connect things, the best I can get is to have the batteries spark (slightly) when I connect the leads in only one way. Then, when I depress the throttle, it comes on full power all of a sudden causing the scooter to lurch forward out of control. When I try to hook it up any other way, either get big-time sparks, or nothing. Any ideas? Thanks!

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

A small spark is normal when hooking up the battery directly to the controller. The capacitors in the controller draw power to charge. If you have an on/off switch, make sure it's in the off position when you connect the battery.

For safety, always block-up your scooter so the rear wheel is off the ground before connecting components and turning it on.

You may have a bad throttle. How many wires are there from the throttle to the controller?

Chintzel
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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

IMG_0407.JPG

Here is a pic of the connection. Looks like 7 wires. How can I tell if it is bad?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Three wires are all that's required to make the "throttle" work. Do you have LED's on the handlebar that indicate state-of-charge of your battery? Are there any other components attached to the throttle control on the handlebar that might be getting power from the controller?

Typically, the red wire from the controller is 5V (positive) and the black wire is 5V (negative). A third wire (often blue or green) is the variable voltage "signal" wire coming from the throttle.

Do you have a voltmeter that can measure anywhere from 1 to 24+ volts?

Chintzel
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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Thanks for the reply.
Yes, the three lights (red, yellow, and green) all light up when I turn the power on (that is when I have the batteries connected in the following way: Red lead from control module to positive terminal of one battery, black lead from power switch to negative terminal of same battery, black lead from control module to negative terminal of other battery, and red lead from power switch to positive terminal of same battery). I have tried to connect it where the batteries are connected to each other directly by negative terminals (and then the red lead from the power switch going to the one battery, the black lead from the control module to the other battery, and the red lead from the control module going to the power switch) which I think wires them in series but nothing works.
It looks like one large wire (which contains the 7 small wires I showed you in the picture) runs from the throttle to the controller - connected by the 7 pin connector. The brakes have separate wires from the throttle.
I do have a volt meter. Where do I test voltage? Across the black and red pins of the throttle wire connector?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Thanks for the reply.
Yes, the three lights (red, yellow, and green) all light up when I turn the power on (that is when I have the batteries connected in the following way: Red lead from control module to positive terminal of one battery, black lead from power switch to negative terminal of same battery, black lead from control module to negative terminal of other battery, and red lead from power switch to positive terminal of same battery).

This will give you 24V (series), but puts the switch in the battery-to-battery interconnect. It works, but if you charge with a 24V charger, you would need to have the switch on while charging. Not a good situation!

I have tried to connect it where the batteries are connected to each other directly by negative terminals (and then the red lead from the power switch going to the one battery, the black lead from the control module to the other battery, and the red lead from the control module going to the power switch) which I think wires them in series but nothing works.

In this scenario, you are connecting both batteries together negative-to-negative and therefore are sending only 12V to the controller which likely has a Low Voltage Cutoff of about 21V. Anything less will not work. Change the negative-to-negative connection to negative-to-positive and this would work.

It looks like one large wire (which contains the 7 small wires I showed you in the picture) runs from the throttle to the controller - connected by the 7 pin connector. The brakes have separate wires from the throttle.
I do have a volt meter. Where do I test voltage? Across the black and red pins of the throttle wire connector?

With your voltmeter, test across the red and black pins coming from the controller. You should see 5V. Connect the red wire to the throttle (you may need to use a jumper) and then start testing the wires coming from the throttle. Check each one against the black pin on the controller. One should give you 5V and will vary (toward 1V) as you twist the throttle control. If none do, you have a bad throttle.

Does the brake wire have a separate plug on the controller?

Let us know what you find. Hope this helps.

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Thanks I will give that a try. Yes, the front brake has a separate plug on the controller. The rear one appears to bypass it. I rewired the batteries like you suggested and I get full power - but yet again, the throttle is either off of on full power. Does this suggest the throttle is likely the problem or could it still be the controller or something else?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

It's still possible that it's the controller, but I'd do more testing with the throttle first. It's also the cheaper item to replace, although you probably will have a hard time finding a plug and play replacement. I've had three throttles fail on my Schwinn and Lashout scooters over the last couple of years. Your scooter has been out of production for a long time and direct replacement parts will be difficult (or impossible) to find. They are extremely well-built scooters and I considered buying one myself a few years ago. Worst case is that you replace both the controller and throttle with what's currently available at online parts suppliers. TNC Scooters has very good prices. If you do wind-up needing a controller, you might consider upgrading to a higher voltage (36V) by adding a third battery and buying a 36V controller. Your motor should be able to handle the increased voltage.

Good luck, and please let us know what you find-out from further tests.

Here's a link that you might find helpful for troubleshooting:

http://www.electricscooterparts.com/troubleshooting.html

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

I must be measuring wrong. I get no reading at all across any of the pins coming from the controller. I have it all hooked up - and the batteries test at 13.5 volts. When I connect the throttle, I get full power or nothing as I said before but when I try to measure across those pins, I get nothing. I have tried every combo and still nothing. What should I set the meter to? I have tried AC and DC "5" volt setting.

OK, I figured it out. I get 4.3 volts across from red to black but 5volts when I measure from red to any of the other pins. I need to get a jumper to perform the rest of the testing I guess. Thanks

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

OK, I rigged up a jumper. Where do I put the black probe? On the black from the controller or from the throttle? I get nothing when I measure with both probes on the pins from the throttle, but when I touch the black to the black from the controller, and then the red onto either the red, brown, or black from the throttle, I get 4.3 volts. But nothing measuring against the blue, yellow, green. Does this mean the throttle is bad?

OK, I re-read your directions and realise the black probe goes to the pin from the controller. I had someone else twist the throttle and measured against all of the throttle pins. Looks like 4.3 against the red and brown and a little less against the black (black to black). Nothing at all against the orange, yellow, blue, and green ones.
I am assuming the throttle is bad. Right?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

EACH battery measures 13.5V? So, you should see about 27V going INTO the controller from the batteries if they are wired properly in series. Disconnect the battery-to-controller plug and measure the voltage on the battery side of the plug using the same DC meter setting you used to get the 13.5V You will need the power switch turned ON to do this. If you have ~27V, reconnect the battery-to-controller plug. Now there SHOULD be "something" coming out of the throttle pins of the controller. Black should be the negative, so attach the meter's negative lead to the black pin on the controller and touch the positive lead of the meter to each of the other 6 pins in the throttle plug on the controller. Record the color combinations and whatever voltage you find. I've used "should" because there is no international law that requires a certain color to do a certain job. Different manufacturers may use different colors. If you get nothing from any of those combinations, try moving the meter negative lead to the next pin and touch the positive from the meter to each of the other pins. Repeat moving the negative until you have tried every possible combination of two pins. You will not have the throttle wires connected to the controller at all during this test. Makes sure the drive wheel is NOT touching the ground!

Chintzel
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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

How can I measure the disconnected plug (black) from controller to battery? Where does the other probe go?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Oops, we keep crossing posts. But I think I got it this time. The orange, blue, yellow, and green are for the LED's so we can leave them alone.

With the battery connected to the controller and the switch on, jump red to red. Connect the black to black thru your meter. 4.3V? yes? Now connect black on the controller thru the meter to the brown on the throttle and move the throttle control. If you do NOT get a voltage that varies with the change of position of the throttle control, you have a bad throttle.

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Oh, I see - I did not realise those other wires were for the LED. Anyway, I get NO variation in voltage from black on controller side to brown on throttle side - it stays at 4.3 volts when I activate the throttle. Interestingly when I do black to black I get slightly less than 4.
Now, I have as you said found it hard to find a new throttle for it. If I got a generic one, I guess I really only need one with three wires, brown, red, and black - this would inactive the lights but I don't care about that so much. Some generic ones I see have four wires. Where would the 4th one go? Finally, would a pacelite 705 throttle work assuming it is also a 24 volt scooter?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Yes, you need only three wires on the new throttle. Colors may vary, but functionality would not. A fourth wire would be for LED's but it might not match the functions coming from your stock controller that wants to use multiple wires for the LED's. Also, a 4-wire throttle would need to be for a 24V system, but a simple 3-wire throttle could be used for 24V, 36V, 48V etc. You will also have a choice of full-grip twist, half-grip twist, or thumb throttle. Any will work.

I can't comment on the 705 throttle. If the plug matches-up, and it's for 24V, it "probably" would work, but I'm not sure.

Since your throttle is bad anyway, you might want to carefully try to open it and look around inside. There will be a magnet in there that is probably out of position. If you take a small metal paper clip and lightly rub around the outside of the throttle control body, you should find a place that attracts the clip. If you were very lucky, you might be able to get it apart, and reglue the magnet where it's supposed to be. Even if you were totally unsuccessful, it could be a good learning experience.

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

OK great. One question. My scooter activated when I bridged the black wire from the controller to the orange wire from the throttle and it seems like the brown wire controlled the variability of the throttle. If red is the power and black is the ground, does that mean I need a 4 wire throttle at least? If I used a three wire one, which would I connect the leads to? The Black, Red and Brown I assume?
Thanks again.

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

OK great. One question. My scooter activated when I bridged the black wire from the controller to the orange wire from the throttle and it seems like the brown wire controlled the variability of the throttle. If red is the power and black is the ground, does that mean I need a 4 wire throttle at least? If I used a three wire one, which would I connect the leads to? The Black, Red and Brown I assume?
Thanks again.

I'm trying to understand what you did this time. You had a jumper from red to red? And touched the orange from the throttle to the black from the controller and the motor ran full power? Regardless of throttle position?

Could you go back to my previous post and measure the voltage (and record) EVERY possible combination of two pins on the 7-pin controller plug? There will be 21 combinations. Please post them here. Something doesn't seem quite right yet.

If you don't care at all about LED's, you need only a three wire throttle, but you've got to make sure you are connecting it to the proper pins on the controller.

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

OK here are all the combinations:
Controller Throttle Reading
Black to Black 3.7V
Black to Brown 4.3V
Black to Red 4.3V
Black to Orange 0V
Black to Yellow 0V
Black to Green 0V
Black to Blue 0V
Brown to Black 4.3V
Brown to Brown 7V
Brown to Red 7V
Brown to Orange 7V
Brown to Yellow 0V
Brown to Green 0V
Brown to Blue 0V
* All other combinations read 0V
Bridging the Black pin from the controller to the Orange pin from the controller, with the throttle connected to the controller via a jumper from red to red, activates the scooter. (with the voltmeter set to 5 ohms or the lowest range).
The throttle has three LED lights, red, orange and green indicating levels of charge.
Thanks!

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

To do this test, you were supposed to have the throttle completely disconnected. We're trying to determine the voltages in the different combinations of pins coming OUT of the CONTROLLER. So we can maybe determine the function of each color:

...Black should be the negative, so attach the meter's negative lead to the black pin on the controller and touch the positive lead of the meter to each of the other 6 pins in the throttle plug on the controller...

So you could NOT go from black to black, or from brown to brown on the same plug.

Why did you have the meter set for "Ohms"? We are trying to measure voltage, not resistance. Are you certain that your meter works?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

OK here are all the combinations:
Controller Throttle Reading
Black to Black 3.7V
Black to Brown 4.3V
Black to Red 4.3V
Black to Orange 0V
Black to Yellow 0V
Black to Green 0V
Black to Blue 0V
Brown to Black 4.3V
Brown to Brown 7V
Brown to Red 7V
Brown to Orange 7V
Brown to Yellow 0V
Brown to Green 0V
Brown to Blue 0V
* All other combinations read 0V
Bridging the Black pin from the controller to the Orange pin from the controller, with the throttle connected to the controller via a jumper from red to red, activates the scooter. (with the voltmeter set to 5 ohms or the lowest range).
The throttle has three LED lights, red, orange and green indicating levels of charge.
Thanks!

With red (controller) jumped to red (throttle) you have an open circuit since you are not using any other wires coming from the throttle. If "bridging" black (controller) to orange (controller) "activates" the scooter, you would not see 0 volts across the black and orange as you have in your table above. Something's really nuts!

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Perhaps I am reading the meter wrong. I have to set the meter to either 5, 25, 125, 500, or 1000. Aren't those Ohms? Or is that volt range?
All these readings except the ones that read "7" (or at least what I think is 7) are with the setting at 5.

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

I just confirmed. Definitely zero on the black to orange reading from controller to throttle while jumped.

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Oh! I have been reading it all while jumped. Let me try to do it jumped.

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Set the meter to whatever gave you the 13.5V on each battery, then leave it alone and do the complete test with the throttle plug totally disconnected. Did you ever measure the total pack voltage going INTO the contoller from the batteries?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

I just confirmed. Definitely zero on the black to orange reading from controller to throttle while jumped.

Forget about controller-to-throttle measurements for now. Just test all the combinations on the controller side of the plug.

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

I am not sure now i was reading 13.5 volts. I may be reading the damn meter wrong. It has 4 ranges on the screen but 5 ranges to set it to. How do I read that screen when set to 25?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

Oh! I have been reading it all while jumped. Let me try to do it jumped.

I sure hope this was a typo ... You mean "unjumped"?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

When I say jumped, I mean running a wire from red to red from controller to throttle. I am now trying to do it "unjumped"

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

I am not sure now i was reading 13.5 volts. I may be reading the damn meter wrong. It has 4 ranges on the screen but 5 ranges to set it to. How do I read that screen when set to 25?

Send me a clear, close-up pic!

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

When I say jumped, I mean running a wire from red to red from controller to throttle. I am now trying to do it "unjumped"

I know what "jumped" means. I want you to do all these tests with NO JUMPER! Okay?

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Re: New Pacelite HCF 707 Throttle problem.

IMG_0410.JPG
IMG_0411.JPG

Here is the meter reading for a battery. The meter is as you can see set to "25" under the DCV side.

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