Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current limiter)

14 posts / 0 new
Last post
dvdaudio
dvdaudio's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 20:40
Points: 32
Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current limiter)

Vectrix died on the way home the other day. Thankfully only about a 1 mile (1.5km) push; quite a workout.

Thanks to previous posts, was able to discern that I had blown the main fuse. Makes sense: was on side road going about 45kph (30mph) and used full reverse/regenerative braking to slow down for speed bump when I heard the "pop." Also speedometer needle stuck around 50kph; everything else dead.

Also thanks MIK and others about 200 AMP Cooper Bussmann replacement of 125 AMP Littlefuse. Went to WW Grainger this morning, here in the States: US$61.45 plus AZ sales tax.

Now - here's my request, especially MIK and others with good EE skills. I've notice on the other blogs that using ICL would involve attempting at the front/rear battery connection terminal. From how I am looking at the whole array, there is a final PLUS and MINUS connection at the rear leading directly to the controller board (and fuse). Why can't I use ICL at the final PLUS connection?? Or maybe why SHOULDN'T I ??

Glen O'Hara
Arizona, USA

X Vectrix
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
Joined: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 - 05:20
Points: 298
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

You can. Its also alot easier. Assuming you have replaced the fuse and reassembled everything, before reconnecting the big blue connector, disconnect the positive lead from the battery. Then reconnect big blue connector. Now, using some alligator clips or similar, connect a 10K resistor between the positive lead and the battery. Position the clips so you can still re-attach the main lead. Wait 5 seconds then connect main lead. If you are paranoid and need to see the electricity flowing, use an LED with the resistor. Or you could wait 5 seconds then turn on the key. If the dash comes on for a second you know the current is flowing. Turn off key and wait 5 seconds again then connect main terminal. Dont touch any other part of the battery when connecting the main lead.

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

You can. Its also alot easier. Assuming you have replaced the fuse and reassembled everything, before reconnecting the big blue connector, disconnect the positive lead from the battery. Then reconnect big blue connector. Now, using some alligator clips or similar, connect a 10K resistor between the positive lead and the battery. Position the clips so you can still re-attach the main lead. Wait 5 seconds then connect main lead. If you are paranoid and need to see the electricity flowing, use an LED with the resistor. Or you could wait 5 seconds then turn on the key. If the dash comes on for a second you know the current is flowing. Turn off key and wait 5 seconds again then connect main terminal. Dont touch any other part of the battery when connecting the main lead.

I do not think the capacitors would be fully charged after 5s with 10kOhm in series. It takes them that long with a 40W (240V) light globe in series, which has a cold resistance of about 320 Ohm (IIRC) and a hot resistance of a few thousand Ohms, but way less than 10kOhm.

I'd use a globe, it gives you feedback. See eyeinthesky's recent debacle, where the use of an ICL with feedback would have stopped a nasty spark!

And, it's not necessarily the fuse that blew in you Vectrix! I have never experienced or heard of a VX-1 fuse blowing during regen breaking, and I have never heard of a loud popping sound occurring at the same time.

I think you might have blown a capacitor instead! But that's just guessing.

The fuse might have blown, but it might have blown for a reason!

The reason for the Andersons connector is that it allows to minimize handling of a "live" system as much as possible.

I'd strongly recommend to connect it last, and then keep your hands off everything except for putting the battery container cover back on!

I understand the description X-Vectrix is giving, and yes, it is seems easier, but it is also much more dangerous.

Once the Andersons connector is closed, there is lethal voltage easily touchable on the temp sensor board for the front battery. The tabs 1, 28 and 76 go there, without any fuse or resistor to stop.

75 * 1.4V = 105V = Potentially lethal, but unlikely to flow through your heart.

But whilst you are using both hands to put the positive lead back on, as X-Vectrix suggests, you are working very close to that tab 1 on the temp sensor/BMS rear battery PCB. And that means that the full battery voltage has every chance to kill you by getting in through one hand and out through the other!

Anyone with enough skill to safely use this shortcut would also have enough skill to connect an ICL across the Andersons connector, with next to no extra time / effort!

And anyone without the skill, or just learning it, should either leave it alone or at the very least use EVERY safety precaution possible, particularly this main safety feature of the VX-1!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

dvdaudio
dvdaudio's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 20:40
Points: 32
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

Thanks X-Vectrix & Mik,

Am already planning rubber gloves on this repair; and hope is fuse, did not want to get down to board level; and am not sure about any Vectrix repair support at this time here in the States.

The "pop" I was referring, might have been gear clunk since I was in full regen slowdown, then nothing; meaning coasting. Also, I was looking through a lot of blogs last night finding the stuck speedometer needle a common thread on main fuse blown issues.

Was already figuring to use incandescent globe Mik; but dang US uses 120 VAC instead of much more intelligent 240/50 Hz in AU; so I'm looking for "good" wattage 240 Volt globe as you suggested; or may try 40 watt/120 and see if doesn't blow. Am sure you have a dozen hardware stores nearby with hundreds of 240 volt globes.

Glen O'

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

You could try a 20W (120V) globe. That should have the same hot resistance as a 40W (240V) globe, i.e. 1440 Ohm.

But I do not know what cold resistance that globe has. I measured the cold resistance.

I don't think 120V globe would blow due to the brief over voltage situation when used as an ICL.

But I have not tested it, and I lack the theoretical knowledge for most of this. It's all based on very cautious experimenting (and a little bit of Ohms law here and there).

I don't have any formal electronics training, so I do indeed mean it when I write "use at your own risk"!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

dvdaudio
dvdaudio's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 20:40
Points: 32
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

YUP - that's what I was thinking; although standard 120v wattage here is 25watts; which should be similar cold/hot resistance of 40/240 volt and also unlikely to blow with temporary overvoltage. US 25 watt 120 VAC globes have long tungsten filaments.

Gonna tackle tomorrow; just got home from long day. See I'm going to need to remove perforated cover of control module, and I see will need to pull rear battery pack to gain decent access. Pack measuring around 136DC, so I don't want to wait too long for NIMH natural discharge to get me in trouble.

YES Mik, understand your "disclaimer." No problem. I had a good friend in the 1970's who built a beautiful recording studio, including an advanced, (at the time) custom made recording console from scratch; and he was "self-taught" in electronics. Have great respect for 'ya.

Glen.

winged_racer
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 4 weeks ago
Joined: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 - 04:53
Points: 85
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

Hi guys, you are on the right track and please do heed all the safety warnings!

Below is a diagram for the ICL I use and hasn't given me any grief. Simple to make and use. You may have difficulty sourcing the piercing clip, also known as a BON or Bed of Nails type. Make sure all connectors have insulating sheaths. In a pinch thumbtacks/drawing pins can be substituted to pierce the ribbon cable from the rear battery along with normal clips.. The diagram shows the way the batteries are as you would sit on the bike +POS on the left -NEG on the right. Do not pay any attention to the Anderson connector as the symbols are backwards. Connect in this order, +POS ribbon cable then +POS bolt on front battery THEN -NEG ribbon cable followed by connecting to the bolt on the -NEG side. As you do this the bulb(s) will glow slightly and then go out. Now quickly connect the Anderson plugs and remove the ICL. I found using 2 bulbs works best as using just one bulb (even 60 watts) the plain wire would get very warm. Good luck and work safely!!

Also check the 3 posts on the Motor Controller which the motor wires connect to. Look for evidence of heat on the nuts and at the base of the posts. If there is any the M/C will need to be replaced.

ICL .jpg

Doug Townley
info.DTES [at] gmail.com

(Formerly Vectrix Europe Technical Supervisor)

One door closes, another door opens

X Vectrix
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 1 month ago
Joined: Tuesday, August 4, 2009 - 05:20
Points: 298
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

On many of the bikes the cable to the anderson connector is very difficult to access for the front pack (actually you cant access them). The only thing protruding from the frame is the connector itself. I have always found that trying to reach thru the plastic battery cover to access the terminal with a clip is very clumsy and hair raising as you cannot clearly see what you are attaching to. Thats why I noted that it is easier (and in some ways less dangerous) to use the main lead. BTW...Ive been zapped by these packs quite a few times over the years.

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

Hi guys, you are on the right track and please do heed all the safety warnings!

Below is a diagram for the ICL I use and hasn't given me any grief. Simple to make and use. You may have difficulty sourcing the piercing clip, also known as a BON or Bed of Nails type. Make sure all connectors have insulating sheaths. In a pinch thumbtacks/drawing pins can be substituted to pierce the ribbon cable from the rear battery along with normal clips.. The diagram shows the way the batteries are as you would sit on the bike +POS on the left -NEG on the right. Do not pay any attention to the Anderson connector as the symbols are backwards. Connect in this order, +POS ribbon cable then +POS bolt on front battery THEN -NEG ribbon cable followed by connecting to the bolt on the -NEG side. As you do this the bulb(s) will glow slightly and then go out. Now quickly connect the Anderson plugs and remove the ICL. I found using 2 bulbs works best as using just one bulb (even 60 watts) the plain wire would get very warm. Good luck and work safely!!

Also check the 3 posts on the Motor Controller which the motor wires connect to. Look for evidence of heat on the nuts and at the base of the posts. If there is any the M/C will need to be replaced.

ICL .jpg

Thanks, Doug!

I think this is the best ICL setup I've seen so far.

Using a globe (=resistor) in each cable guards against the potential shorting of one or several cells once the Andersons connector is closed. Therefore, it is then not as critical to connect the alligator clips to exactly the right tab on the font battery and therefore much easier. It's idiot-proofing the single globe design a fair bit!

The possibility to connect the front connectors to the wrong tab was IMHO the reason for the failure of at least one of the "official" ICL's. I have even been shown instructions telling you to connect it to the wrong tab, causing the ICL fuse to open once the Andersons is closed.

Here is a diagram showing what I mean:
//i.imgur.com/BJALJb5.png)

Here is the correct way to connect them:
//i.imgur.com/QSRgxdC.png)

EDIT: Picture urls updated

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Mik
Mik's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 2 months ago
Joined: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 15:27
Points: 3739
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

This thread has been added to the Vectrix Collaborative Handbook, please stay on topic!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

dvdaudio
dvdaudio's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 3 months ago
Joined: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 - 20:40
Points: 32
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

Thanks Mik for adding to Vectrix Collaborative Handbook thread under "Vectrix Fuses." Can see my comments there. I'm back on the road thanks to this forum!!

Glen O'
Arizona, USA
''

Steev
Steev's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 - 19:55
Points: 24
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

Does anyone have a higher-resolution copy of Doug's ICL diagram? It looks great, but I can't read it. I emailed him but it bounced back. :-(

SteveS. 2008 MG Midget lithium conversion => 2011 Think City => 2007 Vectrix => 2015 Tesla 90D

Bikemad
Bikemad's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 22 hours ago
Joined: Saturday, December 21, 2013 - 03:03
Points: 213
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

Does anyone have a higher-resolution copy of Doug's ICL diagram? It looks great, but I can't read it.

I tried to recreate Doug's diagram as best as I could, but even when I zoomed in I still couldn't read what type of bulbs he preferred.
I have shown standard tungsten filament incandescent bulbs as I don't think LED bulbs would work due to the high resistance or their typical capacitive dropper power supplies.

//i.imgur.com/LxfXeHG.png)

Perhaps, if you are using 240V bulbs, a 240V 40W bulb could be used in place of a 110V 10W bulb as it would apply a similar resistance.
At working temperature, a 240V/40W bulb has ~1440 Ohms resistance, a 110V/10W bulb has ~1210 Ohms resistance whereas a 240V/10W bulb has a much higher ~5760 Ohms resistance.

I also found this video on YouTube demonstrating a similar precharge procedure using a single bulb and no crocodile clips.

Hope this helps.

Alan

Steev
Steev's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: Tuesday, October 1, 2013 - 19:55
Points: 24
Re: Main Fuse - Now clarification for ICL (inrush current ...

Thanks very much Alan! The updated diagram plus the short video is exactly what I needed.

SteveS. 2008 MG Midget lithium conversion => 2011 Think City => 2007 Vectrix => 2015 Tesla 90D

Log in or register to post comments


Who's online

There is currently 1 user online.

  • flapjacksbestof

Who's new

  • geoffb
  • Caribe
  • harmonline
  • ECCUK
  • E-scooter fan

Customize This