Vanishing 10 Bars! Towed Home

Wellcome to the forum!
Ther is a simple explanation: The battery gauge always gets out of sync. The Vectrix's computer does not take into account all the fraction of energy charged into the battery that is lost due to accidental balancing, overheat, self-discharge, etc. If you never do the monthly battery reset (drive until red battery light is displayed), this 10 bars you've suddenly lost are normal. On the other hand, if you do the recommended battery reset per month, the battery probably gets permanent damage. So, what should you do? This is a tricky Question.

now I am afraid to ride it at all without an explanation. 4 bars vanish often, but 10????

The bike is behaving inside normal parameters. Don't be afraid. I suggest you closely check the voltage and temp of the battery. The voltage will tell you how long will you ride. If you have 125v and 10 bars, IT IS OUT OF SYNC, the battery is discharged and you won't ride far. It is a pity we can't have this information permanently displayed in the odometer.
Batteries in right condition have their cutoff voltage around 115v (Red battery light). Damaged batteries range from 120 to 126V.
Another thing you can do is to check if you have the latest firmware. The latest drivers are said to be more accurate.
Hope this post helps.

ps: I'm building up the vectrix's production chronology. If you have a look at the serial and date of build of your bike (printed in a white stick, behind the front wheel, on the front side of the battery's aluminium box) I'll be very grateful.

R!

I'm a little bit suprised reading your post.. Let's do not terrify the other members of the forum. Cut-off voltage is indeed set to around 116V ( depends on the ambient conditions ) and it was introduced in the latest software. Nevertheless IT IS A SAFE level for the battery and IT DOES NOT damage the battery. If you consider that 1,0 Volt is a lowest safety level per cell its easy to calculate that 116V cut-off is 1,15 per cell. .
In this case I would rather suspect simple out of sync but next cycle will tell you more...

Zumamusher, what kind of software your bike have? Is it possible to see the voltage and temp on the left dash when you pull the left brake lever when the kill switch in off? I'm asking beacuse the previous software was in fact damaging the battery because of the cut off too low, so its worth to check.

Charlie

Zumamusher, before you go into serious panic or depression mode, remember that these bikes are just big expensive COMPUTERS on wheels. and like all other computers, sometimes they just get WACKO for no apparent reason. If it charges up and works fine, file the incident away in the "freak" file.

If you're routinely riding 24 miles at a time, I doubt that there is any sort of serious out-of-sync or short-cycle issue going on. I would be a little more worried about the coffee spill than anything else, as the motor controller board is right below and in front of the trunk. I'm not techie enough to know if it is spill proof or not, but I would assume there are open vents of some sort to allow for heat management.

It's an electronic gadget. And like all electronic gadgets, you need a good backup plan! ;-) I use mine often, but only have half the milage you have accrued, but I bought a hitch tow system for it soon after I got the thing, and keep that towing tool in an easy to get to spot so I can call a friend or neighbor to come and help if and when mine does the same thing.

I hope she charged up and gets you right back on the road again without the need for professional assistance, because you don't HAVE any professional assistance!! :-( My closest dealer is 450 miles away. Major pain when I need help, so I can't even imagine what you would have to go through!

Hi Zumamusher.
I´dont think it has to do with your coffee-mess. The helmet trunk is spilled with water
every time (bottom-side)when you ride in rainy weather.

"busul" means "battery under save voltage", this can be caused by well balanced battery
if it is rather empty, a dead cell in the battery, a loose connection in the battery or
the motorcontroller.
My charge-status was heavy "out of sync" too weeks ago, it showed 9 bars left with a
voltage around 126v but no battery light flashing.

Do you hafe still waranty on the bike? When yes contact a dealer and try to arange
"pickup" of your bike. In my case it worked, they picked up the bike and I had a
spare Bike to use during mine was in the factory, but I live in Austria (other
consumer rights)

Which software does your bike have? Try to check voltage and temp as described above.

As you say you loose 4 bars often: Do they disapear a) at once all together during the
ride, do they disapear b) very fast one by the other or do they disapear when the red
battery light flashes and you turn the bike of and on again.
If your answer is a) you might have the old software. I had this problem too (like Mik
and others) when my bike had the old software. This happens if one or more cells are
damaged or have a significant lower charge.
b) and c) is the behaviour of the newer software.
So charge your bike and watch temp and voltage. If temperature and voltage rise quickly
and reach 150v and above 36°C when the bars are not near 16/17 you might have a damaged
cell in the scooter.
When it is charged check the temperature after som hours leaving the bike. If it rises
(example from 28°C to 37°C) although it had time to rest and ambient temperature is not
to warm there is sometging wrong.
if you don´t need the bike try to charge it full and check the voltage. When it reaches
more than 145v it should not drop down below 140v. My bike droped its voltage from 150v
to about 136v without using it within two days. Now with reworked battery it stays above
140-142v.
If you can check the voltage with the left brake, check it during your ride. With a fully
charged bike it should drop to something around 133v during the ride and hold this value.
It is importand to drive constant for this test (avoid hard aceleration, hard regen breaking
high speeds above 70Km/h) In my case the voltage droped to 128v and stayed around this level.
Checke the temperature too. It should not rise more than 3-4 degrees during the ride.
When ONE of 102 cells died in my Vectrix temperature rose from 24°C to 36°C after a 9km ride
with 23°C outside. The coolig fan did not start up in my case.

So maybe we can help you,just try the tips schown above.

@ Charlie91 :I think R didn´t want to terrify Zumamusher. If only one cell becomes defective
the battery warning sometimes comes up with 130v left.

crossing fingers
Mike

how far do you ride normally?

do you normally use those last 10 bars?

when was the last time you used those last 10 bars?

if it was a while ago, than you are probably experiencing memory effect more than anything else.

thats good, because a few deep discharges will sort that out and not cost you anything.

if you use those last 10 bars regularly, than it is interesting you would suddenly lose capacity.

has the temperatures been above 30 deg C much in the past few days where you live?

Matt

btw, if it is memory effect, the charge process also wont complete, as you have noticed.

memory effect is something we do not normally see (Mik is the only one with a confirmed case).
it happens when a cell is cycled never below a certain value (even with self discharge).

If you would like to avoid opening up the bike:
I suggest riding the bike until the top speed is just 50kmh, then recharge again.
you should have mostly full capacity back after this.

I dont normally suggest that for other reasons, but if your battery is damaged, it won't damage it further, if your battery is just memory affected (like I think it is) it will sort it out.

If you are confident enough to open up your bike:
get to the battery and wire a normal incandesant light globe to the battery.
This wont damage any battery under any circumstances.
when the voltage goes below 100vdc, disconnect the globe and turn the bike on.

the red light should come on irrelevant of if you actually ride the bike or not (as the 107v@70A condition has been met).

then start the charge process.

Matt

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Any other thought appreciated. Oh, it is not memory problems, every day I ride 24 miles on way. Last summer I would make it with 5 or 6 bars remaining, this year I only have had 4 or 5 bars remaining when I got to work or back home. At least once a week the red battery light would go on and I would go the last mile or so on the shoulder. I don't know celsius very well but it has been pretty cold here like 50 degrees when I ride to work. And very rainy which seems to take more battery too. Thanks guys.

That sounds to me like severe battery damage. The last mile on the shoulder once per week, with old software, would have reverse charged the weakest cells into destruction. I was in a similar situation (about 40km range before BALPOR = Battery Low Point Reset = disappearing bars) when I decided to get to the bottom of the problem. It turned out that about 13 cells of the 102 cells were markedly damaged. If I had continued to ride the bike without massive modifications, then the weak cells would have died soon - like yours seem to have done!

However, there is a small chance that an equalisation charge (EQ charge) might help you. But you would also need someone with EV know-how and special equipment for that. Not for the faint-hearted, very dangerous if you don't know what you are doing.

If you have Vectrix still under warranty, you should get your battery pack replaced under warranty. And get the latest software. The pre-October 2008 software destroyed my pack also. When I got a new pack, I also received a software upgrade. Needless to say, that my pack is one year and 4600km later as good as new.

If you have Vectrix still under warranty, you should get your battery pack replaced under warranty. And get the latest software. The pre-October 2008 software destroyed my pack also. When I got a new pack, I also received a software upgrade. Needless to say, that my pack is one year and 4600km later as good as new.

I had the same problem with the old software. I was "lucky" as only !one! cell died, but this one completely: fully charged around 1 V capacity something around !1 AH!
instead of 30 AH. With warranty try to arange a replace. Without warranty try to find someone with electric engineering skills to open the battery and find the
dead cell(s). If only one cell is dead it can be shunt.

Be aware that the pack has a voltage between 110 and 150V! - quite dangerous voltage - so only a skilled erson should open the bike.

How get to the batteries: opening sequence . Again thanks to Mik wich did a great
research.

A possibility for a fast check: take each of the 12 blocks and measure the voltage of each cell (8 on small 9 on large block) they should all have similar values.
my damaged cell had about 1,0 v when the other 101 cells had something above 1,3v (sorry I don´t have the data here available) Better would be to discharge the block
with a 12 v electric car heater or something else and measuring each cell.
A realy accurate way is to measure each! cell with a device called CBA-unit described here But this takes a lot of time. The empty packs can be charged with a 12V
battery charger but you have to watch each cell and its temperature (not more than 1,48 v and 30°C!!)
I used this Device for a spare block it handles both 8-cell blocks (tricky) and 9-cell blocks: CT-8000PB

with the 8-cell block it starts to charge at 3 A, the 9-cell block starts with 10 A reducing down to 3A. You have to stop the charging process manual as
the charger won´t stop (when the cells reached 1,48 v)

I hope my post is not too confusing...

Greetings from Austria

Nevertheless IT IS A SAFE level for the battery and IT DOES NOT damage the battery.

Well, I though the same, until my bike started to hit 40ºC last winter. Now a full discharge heats up my battery to 56ºC at 120v...
It is safe until the weakest cell gets so damage and gets so imbalanced that it starts to reverse and fry!

Let's do not terrify the other members of the forum. Cut-off voltage is indeed set to around 116V ( depends on the ambient conditions ) and it was introduced in the latest software.

Sometimes the truth is terrifying.. hehehe. My first cutoff voltage was 105v (may 2007 Firmware).
Newer firmwares raised the cutoff voltage. With oct 2008 FW and a perfect battery, my cutoff was 115v. As months went by, the cut-off voltage was raised first to 117v, then 119v, and now to 123-124v (cut-off = red battery light turning on).

Why was it raised?
Firstly I though the system could "feel" seasonal changes. The chemistry of the battery has different behavior in cold and warm weather, and system seemed to apply some modifications in voltage parameters. But in my opinion, this was not entirely true: the system can read some voltages of cells in series, and an abnormally low voltage would force the system to gradually rise the Cut-off voltage, in order to prevent damage. However, because there's no BMS to control each cell individually, the weakest cells get reversed.

My experience? Avoid full discharges.

I'm not sure, but this sudden loss of capacity can be a death cell.

With warranty try to arange a replace. Without warranty try to find someone with electric engineering skills to open the battery and find the dead cell(s). If only one cell is dead it can be shunt.

I completely agree.
Warranty: replace the battery (somebody should come to replace the battery), upgrade the firmware, and I suggest you ask to upgrade the main fuse from 125A to 200A.
No warranty: Shunt the death cell. Ask how much for a firmware upgrade and a main fuse upgrade.

An new bike from 2007 may not be a good idea, as you need 24 mile of range every day, and some of these batteries may not be in right condition due to careless maintenance (bike must be recharged once per month).

ps: Z, Thanks for the VIN and date of build. ;-) Hope you'll have your bike fixed soon!

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Sometimes the truth is terrifying.. hehehe. My first cutoff voltage was 105v (may 2007 Firmware).
Newer firmwares raised the cutoff voltage. With oct 2008 FW and a perfect battery, my cutoff was 115v. As months went by, the cut-off voltage was raised first to 117v, then 119v, and now to 123-124v (cut-off = red battery light turning on).

Why was it raised?...
...

I still run early 2008 firmware - so I'm not quite certain if my understanding of the voltage measurements is correct, but....

Is it correct that you can only see the voltage after stopping - i.e. not under a significant load? If yes, then:

The problem is either capacity imbalance or SOC imbalance (or both).

With a new (or perfectly balanced) battery, the voltage under load will drop to the programmed value. Because all the cells are quite empty at that stage, the voltage will not rise as much when the load is removed (and you take the reading). If the programmed voltage under load was 115V then you get: 115V/102 cells = 1.127V/cell.

With an imbalanced battery, the voltage of the empty cells drops to zero volts under load. Then, before you take a measurement, the bad cells voltages go back up to about 1V. In addition, the voltage of the good cells is still higher than it would be in a balanced battery.
With 10 unbalanced or damaged cells you get this:
102-10=92 good cells. 115V / 92 = 1.25V per good cell

Once you turn the scooter off, you get an additional 10V from the 10 empty cells bopping back up to 1V each, i.e. about 125V in total.

In general the battery voltage jumps higher in the short time you take to stop the scooter and take the reading if the battery is imbalanced.

Once you turn the scooter off, you get an additional 10V from the 10 empty cells bopping back up to 1V each, i.e. about 125V in total.

Thnk's MIk, this is a clever comment. I would need a permament voltimeter to know what's going on inside the battery: I have a perfect match http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

Large Screen High Current Model (CA-HC-LS) This model has a display screen that is twice the size as our regular version so that it is easily readable at a glance. It's designed primarily to mount behind existing dashboards, and as such is not supplied with any enclosure, just the bare LCD and circuitboard. Please note this when purchasing, they are generally NOT suitable for bicycles unless you want to take on making an enclsoure. These units are also modified to operate up to 200V.

and soon this information will be logged inside a SD card:

SD Memory Card Logger We are working on a data logging solution that will store the information stream from the Cycle Analyst and GPS unit directly to a small solid state memory card. Then you can simply plug the card into a computer afterwords to study the data, rather than having to have a small laptop with the vehicle while riding. Expected availability is sometime in July 2010.

Interesting, isn't it?

I stand corrected, dead cells it is.

if you have no warranty, I would suggest looking at getting lithium if the nimh pack is too far gone.
definately look at shunting the dead cells first though, that option costs almost nothing.

im getting 45 miles range @ 68mph

going 60Ah like me will set you back ~US$5k + 10 hours labour
40Ah would cost ~US$4k + 10 hours labour
always really time consuming the first time through.

Matt

Here's an update: I have been on the phone for two days to Vectrix, the ex-dealer, the new dealer,etc. Vectrix has been most helpful! Dana, the head of service, believes that the operative piece of the puzzle is when I said that the red battery light did not go on. He believes that means that the bars and battery are out of synch. That is, the bars disappear and the bike can't accelerate but the battery is still full. Or maybe he meant that the bike when charging thinks it is full when it isn't yet. Either way, I am suppose to ride my bike until the red light comes on for five seconds. I may be going only 10 mph for awhile. Then it should be good to recharge and good to go. Cross your fingers!

I'd bet my bottom dollar this is incorrect.

If the battery and gauge are just out of sync, then you would not have lost any bars after the first event. It did charge the number of bars that were shown after the reset, but you could not get them out again. It means the energy has been dispersed as heat during the charging and/or discharging process.

I don't think it would have shown "BUSvLt" either if it had been an out-of-sync problem.

yeh, that explanation doesn't jive with me either, however:

it is possible that some older versions of the MC firmware cutback based on number of bars left, rather than thinking for itself.

perhaps the bike just has a very old version of MC firmware loaded.

I ride around with 0 bars all the time with no change in performance.

Matt

Either way, I am suppose to ride my bike until the red light comes on for five seconds. I may be going only 10 mph for awhile. Then it should be good to recharge and good to go. Cross your fingers!

I'll be surprised if this issue is solved by discharging the bike... but Dana is the Head of service. Let's see what happends.
One silly question, when you turn the bike on, there is a starting sequence in which all lights are turned on. The red battery light is successfully turned on?

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it is possible that some older versions of the MC firmware cutback based on number of bars left, rather than thinking for itself.

perhaps the bike just has a very old version of MC firmware loaded.

I ride around with 0 bars all the time with no change in performance.

Matt

That seems to be the case...because Zumamusher posted this in another thread:

Please read my posts under Vanishing 10 Bars! My bike appears to be up and running after 1) running bike down to red battery light and keeping it there for over 5 seconds, and 2) updating the firmware to the latest and greatest. It does not appear to be dying cells like some others on this website had feared. But, I have only recharged and ridden it down one time since the above 2 things were done. I also had the oldest software, however. And, I don't understand anything that I am posting, I have always just ridden. Rode a Harley for 30 years and never changed the oil. So, take my input with a grain of salt.

Even just riding it down once (assuming to normal range) proves that the cells are not dead.

How did you get it done?

2) updating the firmware to the latest and greatest

The Vectrix service upated your V's firmware, and then the V recovered the battery??....

Imagine in a far far away futurethat the vectrix staff could update the vectrix via internet... plug the vectrix via usb to a laptop with internet, intall a vectrix program... and whalà! A person confortably sitting in New Bedford, makes a memory dump, checks parameters, and updates the bike....

hmmm, now there's an idea.. "gotomyvectrix.com"???

hmmm, now there's an idea.. "gotomyvectrix.com"???

We are talking Alaska here!

Unfortunately it is way too expensive to do. That's part of why they went bust! The whole thing was heavily subsidised by all the sharholder money which was lost.

I don't know where the money is currently coming from that pays for the warranty repairs.

Are they actually generating sales to cover expenses now?

OOPS, I forget sometimes, local advertising parallels may be globally lost. In the USA there is a business that allows you to access your computer from anywhere over the internet, so you can access files you left at home, ect. The ficticious website I referenced was a "spoof" of that business model. Apologies fro the confusion. Further clarification, I agree, it would be nice if you could just "plug in" and let your vectrix be remotely updated, as far as firmware goes, but, so much still relies on mechanical inspection and visual telltales that the "remote access" could never replace the on site servicing of a bike.