Noob here. Been reading this site for a while. First, huge thanks to ArticFox for help and support on this. :)
Short version of long story: received an XB-500 on May 23. It died less than 48 hours later. Communicating with X-treme has been less than ideal. Finally, and not really to my liking, X-treme is sending me a new controller but first I have to take out the old one and send it to them. What that is and where it's located I do not know! They're supposed to post instructions for me but I have no reason whatsoever to trust them at this point. From what I've read here, I trust you guys more.
Can someone post instructions for me? Pix would be helpful too.
Thanks!
Well, I have the xb600 which is the bigger ebike. But, as I've mentioned here in other places I've helped someone who lives near me with an xb500...not the controller but just this and that. In fact, the last time I saw that person several weeks ago they said their xb500 stopped running and wanted to know if I'd take a look at it. I told them to call me and we'd set a time for me to drop by and take a look. I'm already thinking "controller" from this post and another one I've seen here recently. Anyway, First of all...unplug the battery box and remove it from the scooter. You don't want any power going to anything when doing this! I can't recall exactly from memory...but I'm still very sure the controller on your xb500 is somewhere up underneath on the frame (like on the 600 and alot of other scoots)...somewhere going down directly beneath the front area of the seat. It will probably be a silver metal "box" looking thing...about 3" wide by 2" thick by 5,6, 7" long. It will probably be wire tied with plastic ties to a flat metal plate on the frame and also have one bolt holding it on one end. All the wires coming out of it should have plugs somewhere along their lengths where you can unplug before you try removing it...making it possible to remove it once you cut the wire ties and take the nut off that bolt. You just put the new controller back in where the old one was...the same way...with the bolt/nut and new wire ties...and plug the wires back together where they were plugged. Then set the battery box back in and be sure and plug it back in. It won't be real hard to do. The toughest thing may be (this is the case on the xb600 as another poster on here explained) the nut on the bolt that holds one end of the controller is such that it actually remains hard to turn as you're trying to take it off the bolt from the controller. This is obviously made that way to keep it from loosening up on it's own. But that just means when you're taking it off you won't turn it and suddenly it gets loose and you can back it on or off with your fingers. You'll probably have to use a wrench the entire time...both taking it loose and tightening it back up. I hope this helps and maybe the person on here in the other post who just replaced their xb500 controller will chime in and give more precise info!
Another note...the controller position on the frame is also probably directly in front of the rear tire...coming down directly underneath the seat as I described above. And, search on the forum here under "controller" and you'll probably find pics of various controllers and that will give you an even better idea of what you're looking for!
Gushar
Gus
Here you go...here's a pic from xtreme's website (xb500 parts) of the controller. Looks like it may not be held on by a bolt/nut on one end...maybe just wire ties???? Not sure..but here's what it looks like...and more square than rectangle like my 600 controller.
Gushar
Gus
Thanks, Gushar! Not quite ready yet to give this a go. Let's complicate this here. This is X-treme's response:
To remove your controller, there are 5 screws in the front fairing. 4 on the black side in front of where your knees are when sitting on the scooter. The other is on the colored front piece just under the headlight.
Once the screws are removed the colored fairing can come off. The headlight will be connected by wires so pull the fairing back carefully and disconnect the wires at the white connector.
Your controller is the silver box located below the horazontal post that the front screw came out of. There are 4 screws holding in the controller at its corners. Remove these and then disconnect all white connectors and it will come free. (Controller may have a zip-tie around itholding it to the frame, this can be cut off with scissors)
If you have any questions feel free to reply here.
My response was "I don't understand how this is supposed to unfreeze the rear wheel."
So you see your instructions and their instructions are a tiny bit different!
My first difficulty with your instructions, which make more sense than theirs, especially that part about unplugging the battery first: how would I go about unplugging the battery box and removing it from the scooter?!
/gimme a miter saw and a finish nailer and I'm set but electronics and mechanics...
Ok....First, the controller is obviously in a different spot on the 500. It is up front under the "plastic coverings" per their description. Well, the reason this will probably unfreeze the wheel...is that in fact the problem is that the wheel will turn freely but when you put the throttle on it "freezes" up...then something "electrically" is happening to the motor. The motor depends upon power being sent to it. The controller is an electronic "brain"...not something mechanical like a lever. This brain controlls where power goes and how much and when...to everything that uses power on your scooter...and primarily to the motor that's built right in the rear wheel...a "hub motor" it is called. So, again if the controller isn't working right it may be sending power intermittently, abruptly and then stopping...off and on...etc. which would cause the wheel to turn, stop...try to turn...stop...or a myriad of reactions. However, you may simply have a "mechanical" problem like the drum brake binding or something like that. It may not be mechanical at all. I mean can you put it on the centerstand...which puts the rear wheel off the ground and without turning the key on...so there's nothing powered...spin the rear wheel? If not then it's not the controller or any "electrical" problem...but something mechanical. That needs to be determined first.
As far as unplugging the "battery box" and removing it. Do you realize that your scooter is powered by 4 batteries that are wired together and that if you lift the carpet where your feet rest there is a couple of recessed handles on each side? Those attach to a "battery box" that contains the 4 batteries that power your scooter. And, if you pull up those handles you can lift that very heavy (batteries inside) plastic box up and completely out and sit it on the floor. But first you have to unplug that black cord/wire that plugs into that box underneath sort of and to the rear...on one side or the other of the scooter. As I recall that is the way the power cord plugs into the battery box on the 500 so you can unplug it where it plugs from the outside of the rear of the battery box. Just look underneath the floor area toward the rear of that area...underneath the scooter...you'll see it. Also, I think the 500 is like the 600 in that there is actually a keyswitch that isn't a switch per se but rather a locking device right there directly in the "scooter footrest area" that you have to turn with the key...to release a "pin" that won't allow the box to be removed unless you rotate that pin back by turning the keyswitch. Hey, but I explained all of that so you'd know...but you won't have to lift the battery box out to disconnect the power cord...just unplug it where it is plugged into the battery box. The XB600 is a bit different you have to actually lift that battery box up...to unplug that cord.
Again, your problem may not even be "electrical" like a bad controller. It may just be the drum brake binding the rear wheel. So, make sure with no power on...that the rear wheel will spin freely. Let me know what you find from what I've explained here and by golley if that doesn't help...then private message me and I'll give you a phone number where you can call me and I can perhaps help you alittle better than this writing back and forth! I mean I'm frustrated because it sounds like you have such a simple problem and yet I know you are very unfamiliar with the scooter, and perhaps don't have very good mechanical/electrical skills (not criticizing) just noting...and so it makes what may be very simple...very complex for you! In any event...let us know what happens.
Gushar
Gus
Whew! Gushar, you're awesome. You make my head spin!
I've learned a lot today: I gave it a go getting to the controller, which is held by 2 screws on the left (rather than 4 as noted by X-treme) and backed by 5/16" nuts. Carefully disconnected all wires, photographing every step along the way (just in case). That did unfreeze the wheel.
BUT that still left the issue of the crackling I'm hearing in the bearing housing under the rear sprocket. I set the stand up on 2 boards to give me a little more clearance under the rear tire. Ran the pedals by hand to feel and hear what was going on. Figured out how to get the rear wheel off (again photographing every step and turn). When I set the wheel on its side, I could really tell how much crud had managed its way into the bearings. I oiled and spun and used compressed air to kind of "rinse" it out. Then I used Teflon bike lubricant and that seems to have been the trick to that. Much more free motion on the wheel. When I resecured the wheel, I pulled the slack on the chain as tight as I could and that did the trick--no more derailing.
After reassembling, analyzing, pedaling, analyzing, I now have a theory as to what happened:
1. A LOT of grease from that center sprocket/bearings housing came out on first ride.
2. Rode scooter on wet road (ergo gunk getting into bearings).
3. Used pedals to assist uphill. Slack in chain caused chain to come off rear sprocket (when I got to the store, I put it back on not thinking anything of it).
4. On the way home when the failure occurred, the chain came off again, this time causing the rear wheel to freeze, thus blowing out the controller.
You'd know much, much better than me about all this, because I'm really just guessing about what happened!
I'll ship the controller back to X-treme tomorrow and wait for the new one. Given my experience with them, that's gonna be a while. I'll let you know when I'm up & running.
:)
You're not really guessing, you are just a quick learner.
The gunk in your wheel/sprocket increase the rolling resistance of the wheel, which made the controller run hotter. This probably burned out the FET's in the controller, which locked up the rear wheel when the controller was powered up.
What you did was smart. Not only did you replace the component that failed (the controller), but you went on to find the real source of the problem, which was the gunk in the rear wheel. Good job!
Good job! Glad you got the controller off and learned some things on the way. Especially glad that you seem to have figured out what caused the problem! Let us know what happens with the new controller.
Gushar :-)
Gus
New controller finally received today. Despite feeling lousy, I managed get it installed. When I removed the old controller and plugged in & connected the battery charger 10 days ago, I got a green light and assumed that it would be fine once I got a new controller. When I went to test the new controller without the bike being plugged in I got nothing. Plugged it in; it works fine. When I use the throttle, the battery charger turns red and then back to green once I let up on the throttle. After running the throttle for awhile, the charge indicator on the bike goes to low and there's an obvious drain in power.
Do I possibly have a couple of wires on the controller connected wrong? Would it even work if I did? (I tested a couple of different configs on the single connection wires and only one way worked.)
I await reply from X-treme yet again. @$%&^#. 24 days of this and counting...
It is not the best idea to turn the bike on with the battery charger plugged in.
Can you check the voltage of the battery pack with the battery charger unplugged?
Well I agree you should never charge with the power on to the scooter...much less give it throttle with the charger hooked up. My good sense just tells me that's not something you want to do. The charger isn't a "replacement" for the batteries to give power to the scooter...even as a test. At the least it might burn up your charger!
I suspect your batteries might be low. I believe the 500 is like the 600 in that you can plug in the charger directly to the battery box...after removing the battery box from the scooter. I'd do that. That way you're just charging batteries...period. Also explain what you mean when you said "I got nothing." Did the battery indicator (meter) on the scooter show any charge? Would the lights come on? etc.
I suspect the charger will react in all kinds of ways if you plug in on the scooter and then turn power on to the controller, motor, etc. You shouldn't have the wires wrong at the controller. Hopefully none of the plugs will fit more than one plug in the bundle??? If they will you could have some mismatched. But, for future reference...always make a note, or take a digital photo, or otherwise somehow document how something is connected before you disconnect it. That way you're guaranteed to get it hooked back up correctly. Don't depend on memory...even for just a few minutes! You'd be surprised at how your "brain" can convince you that you have it right...from memory...when you actually have it wrong!
Anyway, sounds like your controller was in fact the culprit with the original problem so that's good that you have a replacement. Now, it sounds like it may be discharged/dead batteries. Remember once again, the charger is not a source of power for actually running/testing the scooter motor or anything else on the scooter. It's ONLY for charging the batteries! If you have access to a voltage meter...and know how to use it...or have a friend that can do this...check the voltage at either the plug location on the battery box or at the charging port (with the battery box in the scooter and plugged in) on the scooter (but with keyswitch/power off!). Then report it back here. It would help alot for us to know the state of the batteries. Also, what I mentioned above...whether anything would show "power" like the lights coming on...the battery gauge showing charge,etc.
Gushar
Gus
Charged it overnight. Nothing.
The battery case:
•Once I've gotten to this point, I can't figure out how to get the damn things out.
The charger plug:
•How do I disconnect that (or do I need to)?
On that controller, I did take pictures of each and every wire when I removed it but I didn't manage to capture the colors of the wires coming from the scooter. From those pictures though, it appears that the controller is correct. There were really only 3 wires that were in doubt and only one configuration worked. And testing the power with it plugged into the charger and the wall at least told me that the controller worked.
I'm so damn tired of this... Thanks for all your help.
Wait a minute...it seems in the photo you've taken the top off the battery box???? The whole box comes out intact I think...much like the xb600. It should lift right out. It's a plastic box actually inside another plastic framed opening if it's like the xb600. And I remember on this one I saw in person it seemed it was the same??? but with a single plastic handle to lift it out. The 600 has two handles and a locking pin to keep just anyone from taking the battery box out (must turn that with the key. Don't know if the 500 has this "lock" or not but if it does it's right there (a place for a key like a switch) on top somewhere around the battery box. You should be able to just unplug the plug underneath to the box, unlock it with the key somewhere on the footrest area if there is a lock and just lift the whole enclosed box out without taking the top off. Then you probably can plug the charger right into the socket on the battery box.
The socket you have a pic of is the charging socket and NO...don't mess with it other than you could take a reading there with a volt meter and with the battery pack plugged in like normal...and tell the total voltage of the battery pack. Most of all we need to know what the charge is in volts on the pack of batteries...as a total or individually by each battery. Can you get a volt meter and check that or get someone to do that?
That is the only way we'll know if the batteries are charged or discharged. Again though, it could help just knowing what happens when you turn the key on...does the battery indicator show low charge? Once the key is on will the horn blow? Will the lights come on? Can you check that and let us know?
BTW, it looks like a "hole" in the scooter to the right of the charging plug??? What is that?
Gushar
Gus
My husband's going to take a look at it when he gets home later. Meantime, when I turn the key, there's nothing: no power, no lights, no horn.
A bit of progress on the battery box. The 600 box may lift right out but this one sure as hell doesn't. I gently lifted up on a couple of wires and got one out then the next.
From there I can see the battery wires at the bottom of the box...
which then led me to that plug down there on the underside! The battery charger is now plugged into that! If that works, then I know (think) I need a new charger socket!
We shall see . . . :)
P.S. That "hole"is just the tape I used to pull the socket cover back for photographing. Where the scooter's sitting it's easier to photograph from that one side.
Did you check the voltage of the batteries? If you don't already have one, a digital voltmeter is cheap at Radio Shack.
OK, we have voltage at the batteries. Scooter works when plugged into the battery charger (that plug under the seat, not the one to the battery housing) straight into the wall. That tells me there's break from the battery housing to the . . . controller? The break in circuit is definitely coming from the battery to the brains.
I'm going screw by screw, wire by wire to follow that connection.
Next?
I DID IT I DID IT!!! Screw by screw, cable tie by cable tie, followed the connection from the battery to the front of the scooter, discovered that inline fuse holder buried up under the front panels above the front wheel and found the culprit!
I'm going to ask X-treme to comp me a new inline fuse holder and spare fuse because the fuse holder's a bit scorched as well. But it works!!!
Thanks guys for all your help. Y'all got me on the right track and my husband & I figured it out!!! I DID IT!!!
I wouldn't worry too much about replacing the holder. Fuses blow and you are going to get soot on the new fuse holder anyway. You should pick up a few fuses. Unless you know why the fuse blew, the new one might blow also. Your fuse is a standard blade fuse and should be available at any foreign auto parts store. I carry spare fuses with me on my bike.
Hey, good job. Well, it sure looked like your battery box lifted out...but guess that handle is just to lift the top off. Look around as you put everything back together and make sure no wires seem to be shorting to metal here or there. Something blew that fuse...and regardless...don't be plugging in the charger with the scooter on and especially turning the throttle and pulling power with the charger plugged in and the scooter on. That can cost you another charger at the least...or mess something else up...or even burn the motor up!
Let us know if you figure out what blew the fuse. Course I guess if the controller shorted somehow or had just a bad circuit, etc...that could have blown the fuse somehow.
Gushar
Gus
One more note...I reread your earlier posts here to remember just how this all came about. I'd put money on it that you got water (you said rode on a wet road) in the electrical someplace when you rode on a wet road...especially if there was alot of water there. One thing to realize about these scooters. They are in no way protected with water tight plugs, components, etc. All it takes is a drop of water in the wrong place and something can short. It's even a good idea to carry a waterproof cover with you when you are riding and it looks like rain...unless you know where you can get under a covered area really quickly. BTW, if you're near a Sports Authority and Outdoor store they sell a cover, actually for a grill, which is plastic (waterproof) and sells for just around $4-5. It's big enough to cover your entire scooter and will pack easily in your under seat storage area. And another reason I speak about the water problems and especially in relation to the xb500 is that my good sense tells me that the guy I know who has an xb500 may have a similar problem. He told me recently that his stopped running. And now I'm recalling that he said he ran through some water...small puddle...and it was fine...except later when he went to ride it...nothing. So, I'm thinking the "water" might have seeped in somewhere on his and when he went to ride it later it shorted something. So stay away from water!!!!;-) That guy asked if I would take a look at his...and I agreed...but haven't heard anything from him. Think I'll ride around to his place soon and tell him I bet the fuse up front is blown...and probably his controller as well! Just might be the fix for him as well.
Gushar
Gus
Today's post to X-treme(ly sucky scooters):
6/18—thanks to the help of my husband and an Internet forum, I determined that the controller blowout also blew a fuse. Replaced that fuse late last night and it worked this morning . . . for one ride (~3 miles).
**DIED AGAIN** on 2nd trip. This time horn, battery indicator, headlight, etc., operational but throttle disabled. Tried to pedal home; rear wheel not frozen but freewheel hub/sprocket not operational.
Please see attached picture. Hub motor is FRIED.
From the first sentence of my first post on this ticket, you can see that the initial problem out of the box was with the what I now know to be called the freewheel hub/sprocket. That initial defect, coupled with the factory setting of improper tension AND alignment on the chain, led to the chain derailing several times, ultimately freezing the wheel and blowing out the controller and fuse.
This time, I was just cruising and the throttle just cut, and as I said, the freewheel hub/sprocket was jammed.
You have no idea how many hours I've spent troubleshooting this thing. Probably 10 or more. Really, really, really exhausting.
Here's what I'd like to do: I have removed the entire rear wheel. That freewheel hub/sprocket AND hub motor need to be replaced, The best option, considering how much time I've spent on this, is that I will send you the entire rear wheel assembly (minus the rear brake) and you can send me a new one.
In addition, I think the inline fuse should also be replaced because it's operational but a bit scorched from the blowout. I'll trade you this trunk lock you sent me (that I didn't need) and you can send me the inline fuse.
Please call me ASAP. Please.
Wow, once you get your scooter working reliably you are going to have such an immense feeling of accomplishment. You have been through a lot!
I'm not quite sure what I am looking for with the rear wheel picture. The only thing I see that is unusual is exposed blue and red wire insulation, so it kindof looks like the hub spun in the dropout and broke the wires. I'm not really sure from that picture though.
Do you have a picture that shows more clearly how the motor is fried?
From your description of the freewheel alignment and the chain tension, it sounds a bit like they did not really intend for the pedals to be used, that the pedals are just vestigial to satisfy legal requirements. At the very least, the assembly was not done in a way that made the pedals usable.
And many of us wonder why more people don't use electric transportation...
How's this:
IF I get the thing running, then yes, HUGE sense of accomplishment.
I agree about the skirting of the e-bike requirements and I have no intention of ever hooking up the pedals and chain again. I'm probably going to rig foot pegs to make it more comfortable for my son to ride in back since I got the thing primarily to take him to and from school anyway!
argh
Uh, yea, you need a new motor. Might as well send that one back. The new motor will come with a new freewheel. X-treme can probably repair the wheel, but it isn't something you can do yourself.
The bigger problem might be what the dropout (the wide slot on the rear swingarm where the motor axle fits into) looks like. There could be damage to the dropout itself. By taking off the nuts and washers from the motor axle, you can see if the dropout has been rounded by the motor spinning.
Now, it looks like to the right of the dropout there is a bolt hole where a torque arm can be attached. A torque arm is a metal bar that attaches to the motor or axle that keeps the axle from spinning in the dropout. What I don't know is if the XB-500 normally comes with a torque arm - this bolt hole on the swingarm sure looks like it is made to take a torque arm.
This is what the torque arm looks like on another scooter I have.
Without a torque arm, you would have to really tighten the nuts that hold the wheel tight to keep the motor from spinning in the dropouts. That isn't a good design for a 160 lb scooter.
The silver lining in all of this is that thanks to having the chain on the wheel, the motor did not spin off the bike causing an accident.
Is this the swingarm?
It doesn't appear that it spun in place. That "ring" is just the imprint of the washer and is the same on both sides of the frame. You can see in this picture that there's the flattened part of the axel that that washer goes onto that then fits into place so the axel doesn't spin. There's no apparent thread damage to the axel.
Boca, you're good! Examining the original pictures to the ones I took today, I can clearly see that yes, that axel *did* move, possibly a full 360°+ because the orientation of the groove for the wiring where it ended up is NOT parallel to the frame, it's oblique! The freewheel is the whole problem!
Yea, unfortunately I've seen this before a few times. You can tell from looking at the broken cable that that the axle spun in the dropout. Also it looks like the rear of the dropout is wider than the front - so the dropout pulled apart. It is good that the dropout was not rounded. Before you install the new motor you will need to bend the dropout back to where it is tight against the flats of the axle, either using a large pliers or with a hammer.
I'd ask X-treme if they have torque arms for the motor. If not, you can use cheap wrenches that fit the flattened parts of the axle with little or no play. Some people use stainless spoons (yes, eating utensils) as torque arms. If you decide you need homemade torque arms, I can provide more detailed information. You might be able to buy commercially made torque arms, but I don't know where. It is always an issue in these newsgroups.
Gushar, I want to respond here rather than threadjacking Hikerdave's XB-600 questions:
One thing my husband deals in is aircraft failure analysis. I'm well aware of the seemingly benign chain of events that leads to a failure: this one little rivet was one-quarter turn out of place and got hit with bird crap, which led to overheating, which led to . . . you get the idea. :)
Water introduction = bad, very bad. I totally agree. One thing I don't doubt is that the chain kept derailing (because I was bent on using the pedals) and I'm pretty sure that caused the wheel jam and that blew everything out (heard that telltale "clunk" beforehand). When I pulled the scooter onto the sidewalk that day (26 days ago), the chain and sprocket were jammed. When I put the chain back on, the blown controller still had a hold on that wheel. Having to push it home in that condition was . . . um . . . a leeeetle annoying.
After hours and hours of analyzing, it keeps going back to the freewheel hub/sprocket. When it died the other day I kept hearing "clunks" and asking my son if he was doing something. I tried to bicycle it home but that sprocket was jammed mechanically not electronically.
I appears that I'll be sending that whole wheel to them for replacement. The threads on the axle are damaged as well.
I'm not saying your problems were water related... or that they weren't.
Any roadworthy vehicle should be able to be used in a heavy rain. Rain happens.
Unfortunatly, most of the ebikes I buy have to be waterproofed after I get them and before I put them on the road. I usually put a dab of silicone RTV where the wires enter the hub motor. I use electrical tape and silicone RTV to make sure all cables are water tight. I use silicone caulk on the battery box and Arctic Ceramique (thermal compound) to seal the controller and DC-DC converter. I use dielectric ignition grease to waterproof the throttle. The whole process takes a couple of hours, but when I get done, I don't have to worry about getting caught out in the rain on a ride.
Like I said a couple of days ago, the broken cable is not a repair you can do yourself, you have to send it back to X-treme. To open the motor you would need a gear-puller type tool and you are likely to lose a finger putting it back together. The NIB (nickel-dymium iron boron) magnets are VERY powerful.
Well, mine was a guess...with the info as I had read it...but now with this latest failure I'd certainly agree. And after all...I'm just guessing...but you actually experienced the whole chain of events. Certainly water didn't cause this latest problem. And it does seem now that you explained it again that you are right on. I stand corrected!
Now, since I always make a point of mentioning the good customer service I get from xtreme...I will be interested to see the outcome of this...especially someone in your position who has had such problems from day one! So don't let us down here X-TREME! I know you guys can come through for this person. Obviously it was defective from the factory in China. And it's my understanding that nobody inspects or checks these once they are shipped. That does keep the cost down...but ends up causing failures like yours. Anyway, I hope folks from x-treme follow the threads here and will respond appropriately. Again it is very obvious that it was defective from the factory.
Sorry you had this negative experience with this EV. Hopefully as all of us embrace the technology more...the quality will improve. I know that will increase the price but I think most of us would pay a bit more if we could get a bit more quality.
Gushar
Gus
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