How much energy does it cost to power vectrix, compared to fossil fuels

My bike still has to have it's battery fully conditioned, but presently it takes a 3.75Kw to charge it, and this gives me an average range of 45 miles. For this my electricity supplier charges me 7.5p Off peak (White meter), or 2p per Kw, plus VAT at 5%.

I also am running into people who are denouncing EV's for their "false claims" about zero emmissions because generating electricity creates pollution.

On one hand, to be absolutely technical there is no such thing as a zero emmission vehicle. Any form of transportation has some level of emmissions, plasics degas over time releasing chemical fumes into the air. People pass gas, so even walking does not qualify as a zero emmission transportation method.

But speaking on a level that the Zero Emmission rating of vehicles is addressing, because electric vehicles have no internal combustion engine, they have no exhaust and therefor have no emmissions, making them far cleaner than fuel powered vehicles.

The pollution created to generate the fuel for your vehicle is not addressed in the ZEV rating.

Anytime someone pulls up that lame argument about coal plants, I would like to remind them that gasoline does not flow from natural sources. Every form of distributed energy has some sort of pollution associated with it. It is not so much an argument as it is a distraction from the fact that electric vehicles pollute far less than their fueled counterparts. It makes you wonder who started the argument in the first place, and it makes you feel a little sorry for the closed minded sheep who pass it on.

In any case as gas prices raise past 5 or 6 dollars a gallon (at least here in the US) this argument will surely fade away.

According to my averaged measurements I need approx 7,6 kWh/100 km off the grid. To my knowledge this is the energy equivalent of 0,9 l/100 km of gasoline.
Interestingly, in Austria 7,6 kWh is cheaper for consumers than 0,9 l of gasoline, due to extremely high taxes on the latter. I buy my electricity from an Austrian supplier who generate exclusively from hydro power. I can therefore claim to ride totally emissions free. More importantly my Vectrix doesn't emit any particulate matter such as my Diesel Ford Galaxy, and therefore doesn't contribute to alveolic dust (fine or breathable dust). Smog is a serious issue in Klagenfurt during winter months.
Of course, any green fanatic could easily spin an argument against the above statements.

Wolfgang

According to my averaged measurements I need approx 7,6 kWh/100 km off the grid.

Wolfgang

I get similar results when I recharge just before riding (to minimize losses).

Otherwise, with my height (187cm) and weight (110kg fully geared and packed) and the hilly, 80km/h roads around here I need 10.25kWh/100km.

Mr. Mik

Throw some solar panels on your roof and run your bike on sun light. Of course, someone could say there are energy and emissions involved in manufacturing and transporting the solar panels, and in manufacturing the batteries you are charging. But there is also MANY hidden environmental and social costs of fossil fuels. Electric is way cleaner, all things considered. Quieter too.

I do really like the PV to EV concept though. We had solar panels installed when we did a house addition a few years before I got into e-bikes and electric scooters. it is pretty cool to be getting a ride from the sun. I know a guy who charges his Toyota electric car with solar panels. Has a "PV-EV" custom license plate.

Electric vehicles do not brand themselves as "Zero pollution"

They brand themselves as "Zero emition" which is not a false claim.

..and like others have already observed, taking in consideration electricity production's "pollution", there is still a million fold difference between using refinded raw oil fuel and the use of a small percentage of refined raw oil to create an energy of a very much higher magnitude.

Some people whose financial (and mental) power always drives them to black gold, will always argue the contrary.

Luckily more and more people think for themselves.

goodnight.

I believe a big reason why battery technology is superior is less reliance on foreign oil and less pollutants/CO2 being produced. Now some will argue that electricity is produced by coal and is therefore just as polluting. Well, how electricity is produced varies regionally. You can go to: http://www.epa.gov/cleanenergy/energy-and-you/how-clean.html and found out how your electricity is generated. Most electricity is not produced 100% by coal, though even if it was, a central coal plant is more regulated, more controlled, and less polluting than the equivalent number of ICEs. Electricity is all produced in America, is not imported on ships and trucks, is not spilled into the ocean/environment, does not profit the middle-east, can be produced at your home (i.e. solar, wind), and often the source can be chosen (In Texas we can select our electric company, I was able to get Green Mountain which offers 100% wind generated electricity; yes, I know the electricity that comes to my house isn't 100% wind, but a combination of sources, the point is I can choose to add a pollution free source to the make-up of the electricity), and finally it is more accommodating to changing technologies. For example, one of the limits to hydrogen fuel cells is the infrastructure that needs to be put in place; gas stations would need to be replaced by hydrogen refueling stations, the same can be said of natural gas. WIth electricity, whatever the technology used to produce it, the end result is the same: electricity; which is available to practically every home and business. So if a new method of electricity becomes available, it just has to be plugged into the grid and no new infrastructure has to be developed along with it. Though I believe currently the biggest problem/limiting-factor with electricity is how it is stored, but technology is improving and new methods (lithium) and ideas (compressed air) are being developed. Sorry about the rant, but I hear that argument quite often: "...well you know that electric bike is actually powered by a polluting coal plant...".

I did some measurements and outlined my findings here:

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/motorcycles-and-large-scooters/1509

This comparison applies to 50-150 cc scooters, and economically speaking it is a bit dated as gasoline in the US is now at least 4.00 per gallon in most places.

And actual average percentage of coal-generated electricity in the USA is about 50%.

I am a new Vectrix owner as of today. Just took it home today and I have already put 40+ hard miles on it. Just got the battery down to Est Range 0 miles and plugged it into the garage.

The first trip I made today was to the hardware store to buy an electric timer and a 40 foot extension cord to put in my storage compartment. :-) I read about the fan running all night if the Vectrix is just left plugged in. So with the time I have the ability to set it to charge for 2 hours, 4 hours, 6 hours or 8 hours. I think 4 hours will be enough for a complete charge. I will use the 2 hour setting for topping off.

As to the original question for this thread, we are lucky here in the Seattle area. The electric grid is 70% hydro electricity and over 10% wind energy. Another 10% is nuclear. So I can recharge with very little issue about CO2 in this area.

I am having a blast so far on my first day of being a stealth Vectrix rider. I think I got about 40 miles on my range and I was riding at a good speed most of the day between 40 mph to 55 mph. Lots of hills around here.

Congratulations! I hope I join you fellas soon :-)

Congratulations! I hope I join you fellas soon :-)

Buy now before they run out of the 2007 models. The lower price of $8,795 is only to clear out the 2007 inventory.

The 2008 models will be over $10,000 again.

I know ;-)

It's not a matter of me waiting. I'm waiting for my country's Eco-Fund to approve the loan, whose interest rate is fixed for 10 years and it set at 3.9% - lower than inflation. As soon as they approve the loan, I will order one. The end date for promotional price is set to July 31st.

After the bank transfers the money, it's 2-3 week to receive the bike from the factory in Poland.

I am a new Vectrix owner as of today. Just took it home today and I have already put 40+ hard miles on it. Just got the battery down to Est Range 0 miles and plugged it into the garage.

The first trip I made today was to the hardware store to buy an electric timer and a 40 foot extension cord to put in my storage compartment. :-) I read about the fan running all night if the Vectrix is just left plugged in. So with the time I have the ability to set it to charge for 2 hours, 4 hours, 6 hours or 8 hours. I think 4 hours will be enough for a complete charge. I will use the 2 hour setting for topping off.

I just checked my first full recharge after the deep discharge to Est Range 0 miles and zero bars.
The electric timer worked perfectly. All was quiet in the garage when I checked it after 4 hours.

I had the electric timer set for 4 hours of recharging. That only got me back to 11/17 bars.
So the advertising of 2 hours = 80% just lost credibility in my book. Maybe if you start at 40% you can get to 80% in 2 hours.

I just set the timer to give it another 2 hours of charging. My new estimate is 5 1/2 to 6 hours of recharge after a really deep discharge cycle.

What are you guys experiencing in terms of time elapsed? Do you use timers also to keep the fan from running all night?

It depends how hot the batteries are when you start charging. Ideally, the batteries should be at 20'C when charging, if any warmer, the charger charges more slowly and if even warmer, it cools the batteries down or lets them cool down and charges after that.
That's how it's done to prolong the battery life.

What are you guys experiencing in terms of time elapsed? Do you use timers also to keep the fan from running all night?

You have some misconceptions there:

The fans do not run all night unless there is a good reason for it - heat!

The timer serves to turn the charger off after the fans have stopped, because the charger otherwise silently keeps drawing power and heats up.

When you have discharged the battery "deeply" and the battery display has gone to 0 range, then you might also have a situation where the battery display (during or after charging) erroneously says the battery is not full, when the voltage is high and the battery is in fact full.
In that case the charger repeatedly cycles between short "CP" and 15min "tr" cycles, with the fans constantly running. It changes from "CP" to "tr" when the voltage hits about 151V. Usually that happens only once, and it is then followed by the "CC" charging cycle.

If you use a timer to turn off the charger prematurely, i.e. when the fans are still running, your batteries miss out on equalization and cooling. During the 60min "EC" cycle at the end there is still a small amount of current going into the battery. I believe it keeps the voltage up so that the 102 cells equalize their voltage without overheating, and/or it keeps the battery from spontaneously self-discharging due to the high temperature towards the end of CC charging. Self discharge is higher at higher temperatures.
It basically gives the battery one hour of cooling.

Just observe a few charging cycles and set the timer so it turns the power off an hour or so after the fans are out.

Mr. Mik

What are you guys experiencing in terms of time elapsed? Do you use timers also to keep the fan from running all night?

You have some misconceptions there:

The fans do not run all night unless there is a good reason for it - heat!

The timer serves to turn the charger off after the fans have stopped, because the charger otherwise silently keeps drawing power and heats up.

When you have discharged the battery "deeply" and the battery display has gone to 0 range, then you might also have a situation where the battery display (during or after charging) erroneously says the battery is not full, when the voltage is high and the battery is in fact full.
In that case the charger repeatedly cycles between short "CP" and 15min "tr" cycles, with the fans constantly running. It changes from "CP" to "tr" when the voltage hits about 151V. Usually that happens only once, and it is then followed by the "CC" charging cycle.

If you use a timer to turn off the charger prematurely, i.e. when the fans are still running, your batteries miss out on equalization and cooling. During the 60min "EC" cycle at the end there is still a small amount of current going into the battery. I believe it keeps the voltage up so that the 102 cells equalize their voltage without overheating, and/or it keeps the battery from spontaneously self-discharging due to the high temperature towards the end of CC charging. Self discharge is higher at higher temperatures.
It basically gives the battery one hour of cooling.

Just observe a few charging cycles and set the timer so it turns the power off an hour or so after the fans are out.

Mr. Mik

Mr. Mik, can you explain what some of those cycle abbreviations mean? I don't have an owners manual.
"CP", "tr", "CC" ???

Thanks.

http://www.vectrixeurope.com/images/Vectrix_Manuale_EN_low.pdf

Welcome to the exciting world of Vectrix scootering, Morrison!

I, too, am a Seattle-area Vectrix rider, mostly riding between my home east of Redmond and work on Willows Rd. in Redmond. If you see a strange looking fellow garbed in a fluorescent yellow Aerostich Roadcrafter riding suit riding a blue Vectrix, that would be me. Strange-looking, to be sure, but when a car driver does something stupid in front of me and causes me to go down, I'll stand a fair chance of having minor injuries, and they'll have a hard time convincing the police officer that they aren't blind, not having seen me!

I imagine you bought your Vectrix from Green Car Co. - I've not visited them since they moved their sales office from Kirkland.

As Mr. Mik has said, the fans don't run all the time, but there is still significant power draw after charging is complete, so having it on a timer is a good idea. With my Kill-A-Watt power monitor hooked up to the Vectrix, it shows a 55 Watt power draw, post-charge, but I noticed today that the VA reading is 72, giving a Power Factor of 0.76. Power companies don't like P.F. readings that low, since you're effectively "stealing" power from them, but this is minor amount of power, so they probably aren't going to bother you about it. Still, just another reason not to leave it plugged in all of the time.

Regards,
Dave

Buy now before they run out of the 2007 models. The lower price of $8,795 is only to clear out the 2007 inventory.

The 2008 models will be over $10,000 again.

Is there any real difference between the 2007 models and the 2008 ones?

Buy now before they run out of the 2007 models. The lower price of $8,795 is only to clear out the 2007 inventory.

The 2008 models will be over $10,000 again.

Is there any real difference between the 2007 models and the 2008 ones?

As far as I know, there are no 2008 models. They stopped production because they are not selling enough of them. Don't take this as gospel from me, I recall being told that by a Vectrix person in Rhode Island. Maybe they stopped production in the USA, but they are still making them in Poland.

Welcome to the exciting world of Vectrix scootering, Morrison!

I, too, am a Seattle-area Vectrix rider, mostly riding between my home east of Redmond and work on Willows Rd. in Redmond. If you see a strange looking fellow garbed in a fluorescent yellow Aerostich Roadcrafter riding suit riding a blue Vectrix, that would be me. Strange-looking, to be sure, but when a car driver does something stupid in front of me and causes me to go down, I'll stand a fair chance of having minor injuries, and they'll have a hard time convincing the police officer that they aren't blind, not having seen me!

I imagine you bought your Vectrix from Green Car Co. - I've not visited them since they moved their sales office from Kirkland.

Hello Dave. We ought to meet and form a Vectrix gang or something goofy like that. I live in Issaquah. Based on Google maps, I am confident I have the range to get all the way around Lake Sammamish to Redmond and back. Let me know if you want to meet for lunch or dinner or something like that at Redmond Towncenter. I am sure we can find an outdoor plug or something around there. I'd like to get some feedback from you since you have experience with the Vectrix.

I got mine at Green Car Co. A nice bright red one. And the weather is absolutely perfect this week for me to "condition" the battery. At least that is what I am telling my wife when I disappear for two hours.

Mr. Mik, can you explain what some of those cycle abbreviations mean? I don't have an owners manual.
"CP", "tr", "CC" ???

Thanks.

Here is a start:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2707-how-best-break-vectrix-anyone039s-guess
Mr. Mik

Buy now before they run out of the 2007 models. The lower price of $8,795 is only to clear out the 2007 inventory.

The 2008 models will be over $10,000 again.

Is there any real difference between the 2007 models and the 2008 ones?

Yes, I believe, literally a REAL difference!

Mr. Mik

Here's some practical energy cost numbers:

- Driving my Subaru Forester about 4000 local miles at Bay Area current prices (~USD$4.60/gallon) costs me about $920.
- Driving my 250CC scooter for about 4000 local miles at current Bay Area prices = $285
- Driving my Vectrix for about 4000 miles at current Bay Area nighttime electricity rates = $65

That's some serious cost savings over time. Especially compared to the car. I've barely noticed a difference in my monthly home electric bill since buying the Vectrix.

Note that this cost estimate is without fiddling around with timers for the charger. I just plug it in and let it do it's thing. The longest it ever takes to fully recharge is about 4.5 hours. If I get home from work at 7pm it's generally done charging and quiet before I go to bed.

MattFish

The charging and estimated range have not settled in. Until you get past your 4-5 deep discharge, I wouldn;t even take the displays as a guide, but they do settle down after the battery is fully conditioned. When new I was lucky to get any more than 30m (the display suggested 74m!), but after each week of normal recharging with a deep discharge cycle on the Sunday, each week saw a 10 mile improvement on range, that is now tapering off as the 50-60m range limit is reached. After a month, i'm still delighted with it!

Hello Dave. We ought to meet and form a Vectrix gang or something goofy like that. I live in Issaquah. Based on Google maps, I am confident I have the range to get all the way around Lake Sammamish to Redmond and back. Let me know if you want to meet for lunch or dinner or something like that at Redmond Towncenter. I am sure we can find an outdoor plug or something around there. I'd like to get some feedback from you since you have experience with the Vectrix.

I got mine at Green Car Co. A nice bright red one. And the weather is absolutely perfect this week for me to "condition" the battery. At least that is what I am telling my wife when I disappear for two hours.

Goofy is right. We wouldn't be taken seriously if we rode up to a gang rumble on scooters.

It's a pretty flat ride from Issaquah up to Redmond along either of the Lake Sammamish Parkways. Just ride at a moderate and constant speed, and you should be able to make it easily.

I rode by RTC this morning on my way to work and confirmed that at least one of the parking garages there has multiple electrical outlets - the one that's SE of the Macy's building. One of the outlets is even in the area marked off for bicycles and motorcycle parking, and the other one is a parking row away. I didn't check to see that the outlets were live, but it seems likely that they will be.

I'm up for a Saturday or Sunday morning meeting. With my riding suit, I like to ride before/after the heat of the afternoon.

The charging and estimated range have not settled in. Until you get past your 4-5 deep discharge, I wouldn;t even take the displays as a guide, but they do settle down after the battery is fully conditioned. When new I was lucky to get any more than 30m (the display suggested 74m!), but after each week of normal recharging with a deep discharge cycle on the Sunday, each week saw a 10 mile improvement on range, that is now tapering off as the 50-60m range limit is reached. After a month, i'm still delighted with it!

What do you guys consider to be a deep discharge?
All 17 bars gone and 0 est miles on the range?

Or do you consider a deep discharge and 1 to 3 bars remaining and between 1 to 5 miles remaining?

I have never ridden it to the point of it not moving any more. But since I bought it Monday, I have had it at 0 est miles (0/17 bars) on Monday night and Wednesday night.

I have had a few top off chares in between during the day with a partial discharge to get to visit a few friends, then some charging to make sure I can get enough range to return home.

Do the 5 deep discharge cycles have to be consecutive?
Or am I fine with just trying to get it to zero at the end of the day?

It's a pretty flat ride from Issaquah up to Redmond along either of the Lake Sammamish Parkways. Just ride at a moderate and constant speed, and you should be able to make it easily.

Dave, the range of this Vectrix is perfect for just about anywhere in the Seattle region. Do you feel the same way? I am gaining confidence to go just about anywhere. I had a nice ride this afternoon from Issaquah to Ballard for dinner with the founder of an environmental foundation. He wanted to see the Vectrix and take a test ride. He is likely going to write about it. I might blog on his website about the issues of going EV, dealing with recharging, range, etc.

It was a solid 24 miles with a lot of highway time on 520 and I-5. I was at 8/17 or 9/17 on arrival. Luckily it was heavy traffic on 520, so I was able to do an efficient speed of about 30 mph to 40 mph instead of killing the battery at 62 mph. Lots of uphill going that way I noticed. I also love crusing by stopped traffic while I am in the carpool lane. They are all idling or moving at 10 mph burning gas. Then I cruise by at 40 mph on pure electricity that was likely a lot hydro energy with a healthy dose of wind energy in the mix. Great feeling on the 520 today.

A top-off recharge for about 90 minutes in Ballard during dinner, then a ride to Seattle to another meetup (no recharging there), then I-5 and I-90 home. Arrived at home with a 0 est range and 0/17 on the range. Total miles for the trip was over 55 miles I think. I was pushing hard on the speed at 62 mph on I-90 because I knew I had the range to get home. I am going from my 5 deep discharge cycles now.

Great 3rd day on the Vectrix. I love it.

I love reports like this :-)

I'm up for a Saturday or Sunday morning meeting. With my riding suit, I like to ride before/after the heat of the afternoon.

Saturday morning is fine with me. Let me know what time and where you want to meet.