Hey gang,
I have no clue when it comes to this stuff so please bare with me. To make a long story short; I hired a guy in July to install an electric motor on my trike and two months later I received my bike incomplete. It is missing the controller. It has throttle installed, motor installed, wiring, etc..... he gave it to me incomplete during a pending court proceeding to get my bike back (long story).
The motor I provided him with was off an old school scooter that had everything wrong with it but the motor. I can't tell what the model number is or wattage because it's old and alot of information got rubbed off over time. I know it's a Unite brand, 24V, 9.5A current, and the model number starts with MY and ends with CE (I think) but I don't really know anything else.
I need to know what controller motor I should purchase. I don't have lights on the bike so there are only 4 plugs to plug in. If you need pin count on each plug then please let me know. I also have a picture of the motor, I can provide pictures of the current set up as it is on my bike to anyone that is knowledgeable about this stuff. I tried looking on eBay, but there are several 24V controller options depending on wattage but none that have only 4 plugs.
My questions... how do I figure out what wattage I need? Can I purchase something with more plugs and only use 4 (I assume the other plugs are for lights, & other electrical accessories?). Can I assume this is a brush motor and is this something else Id need to know when buying the controller? And finally, if I do end up with a controller with more than the necessary plugs.... how do I figure out which ones to use?
I have brought the bike to several scooter and e-bike shops in my area and I can't seem to find anyone that does this sort of custom stuff, they sell pre-manufactured bikes and don't know anything about what I have.
Sorry for the long post, hope someone here can help as I am eager to convert over to my bike from using my gas guzzling SUV for financial reasons. I've been eagerly waiting to complete this project for a long time.
Thanks for any help,
-Michele
LOL, what's with the self-disparagement? You've gotten farther with this already than many of the guys I know could.
I think you'll be able to find something that works. Key though, is understanding your wiring. You need to know not only how many connectors but exactly what they do; no guarantee your wiring will match anything at all out of the box.
I take it you are not on "friendly communications" terms with this person or you could simply ask him what controller he planned to use. Seems to me you are going to have a wide choice of controllers that work on 24 volts. Most any of the controllers for standard scooters ought to work, but I'd definitely want to know exactly where my plugs alll go before giving it a try.
And I want extra points for ALMOST resisting the urge to make a joke about the "bare with me" line. ;)
Well, I guess I should have been more specific about my ignorance by focusing my lack of knowledge in the area of electronics.... but after the morning I've had with impatient "good 'ol boy" mentallity types at the local shops I directed my need to vent in the sarcastic post. Apprently my BEAR spelling supported the "ignorant" comment though. *grin*
Further inspection of my set up revealed that I actually need a 5 plug controller (at minimum) because the batteries don't have the necessary + & - wiring/plug attachment needed to hook it up to the controller. Glad I discovered that before snatching up the 4 plug controller I did find. =)
No... it would appear that we are not on friendly terms as it took court proceedings just to get my bike back and all I wanted to do was pay him for the service that he apparently didn't have time/desire/motivation to complete. I don't get some people.
Anyway.... I'm almost excited as I think I *might* have figured out that my wattage is under 500.... AND that most controllers have a range of WATTS they will work with. If someone can confirm that my guess is correct: I found specifics on two types of 500W Unite motors that had the same measurements but different Rpms. As I sorted through all the other Unite motors I noticed that the higher the wattage, the larger the machine and the smaller the wattage, the smaller the machine. So, my motor is slightly smaller than the 500W Unite motors that look similar.... and that means I probably have a 300?? or 350w motor??? (guessing) Is this right?
It's fairly obvious what each connector does (I think) because I can easily determine what they are connected to. And most controllers I have found have the connectors labeled (motor, batter, etc). My only confusion is that they only have one battery plug/connector... so, does this mean that I wire the positive from one battery and the negative from another battery to ONE connector that plugs into the controller??
Finally, any thoughts on if I need to know what my RPMS are, if this is a brush motor, etc.? The other similar Unite motors that I found are all brush motors, hense... mine is too??
AT this rate, I might be able to ride next week. =)
I can't help on the controller wiring. But I'd say your wattage (which should equal volts X amps) should be about 240. So I'd say your suspicions are right.
I'll also add that RPM DOES affect the kind of controller you get. As I understand it (as it was explained to me - I'm no expert - I'm in learning mode), the motor (as it spins) feeds back current to the controller. The way the controller manufacturer protects against this is install a "shunt" between the controller and the motor. The higher your RPMs, more current that can feed back to your controller. Hence, it needs to be be properly shunted or it will burn out. I know because I've burnt out 3 of mine. I'm hoping my fourth replacement will do the trick.
If this project doesn't work out, you might consider getting an electric bike conversion kit. I converted a Schwinn Jaguar to electic and I take mine to work (10 miles) once or twice a week. Works great.
Good luck!
Fred.
Thanks for the input. What do you mean by "shunted"? I don't know what that is or how to do it. Is it done on the wireing leading up to the connector? If so, from what part (motor or controller)? The motor already has the wired connector on it, so it's essentally ready to plug into a controller. The controllers I've seen already have connectors.... so where and how do I install the shunt?
Also, not trying to question your math.... but how do I know what the amps are? Is it the 9.5A number that I found listed on the motor? If so, and your formula is correct (volts x amps) then wouldn't that make my RMP about 2850 assuming that my guess of about 300W is correct??
If my amps arn't the 9.5a number I found... then where did you come up with the number to use for the formula?
Sorry, told you I don't know what I'm doing. =)
-Michele
"so where and how do I install the shunt?"
You don't. I was just pointing out that the controller you buy will have to be "rated" to handle the amount of RPMs your motor is capable of doing. The shunt is internal to the controller. You won't need to buy one.
The way I calculated your watts was: 24V * 9.5a (amps) = 228 Watts. That's an odd number, so I rounded up to 240. So, yes, I was using your 9.5a as the amp rating for your motor. But I'm just guessing, based on the data you gave.
Have you tried a web search for "Unite electrical"? Perhaps you could contact the manufacturer for help. I found a site. And they manufacture motors and controllers. So maybe they can help.
Oooo, I got the W confused with the V. Threw off my calculation.... by a lot. ha ha
The only manufacturer I found for Unite is in china, the website is only in chinese, and even though there is an "english version" button, all the pages on the english site are blank. I'm still searching between reading replies on this board so hopefully I'll get a closer answer eventually. =)
See if this helps:
http://en.wjw.cn/SiteShow/87108/Index.aspx
IM THINKING THAT THE UNITE MOTORS ARE JUST STANDARD BRUSHED MOTOR AND YOU CAN USE A MATCHING CONTROLLER FOR THE GIVEN WATTAGE. THE MOTOR IS 24V 9.5A IT COULD POSSIBLY RUN AT 36V FOR A LITTLE MORE SPEED AND TORQUE/POWER. I RECOMMEND YOU GOT TO WWW.TNCSCOOTERS.COM AND VISIT THEIR ELECTRIC SCOOTER PARTS SECTION.http://www.tncscooters.com/CT-201C6.php THIS LOOKS LIKE A PRETTY GOOD COMPATIBLE CONTROLLER. THEY SHOULD HAVE I WILL DO SOME RESEARCH AND SEE IF THAT MOTOR CAN POSSIBLE HANDLE 36V. IF IT IS INDEED A BRUSHED MOTOR WHICH I 90% SURE IT IS ...IT WILL BE VERY SIMPLE TO WIRE IT TOGETHER FOR THE NOVICE DIY. DONT WORRY ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF PLUGS YOU HAVE. i BOUGHT A BRUSHED CONTROLLER THAT HAD 8 CONNECTORS AND I ONLY USED 2 I DESOLDER THE REST.(THE LEFT OVERS ARE NORMALLY USED IN SCOOTER APPLICATIONS)
Sometimes scooter motors don't work too well on a bike, because they were designed to turn much smaller wheels and the gearing isn't ideal for bicycle sized wheels. Even using the widest range sprockets available, you will probably fall outside the rpm range the motor was designed to run at. It still may work, but it may not be very efficient or strong. TNC scooters has inexpensive geared motors, and they carry controllers that would work for sure.
You probably don't want to hear this, but hub motors are a much better way to go in my opinion.
IT SHOULD TAKE 36V VOLT FINE BY THE WAY IF YOU WISH TO GO TO 36V. IT WILL GIVE YOU A SPEED BOOST YOU GREATLY APPRECIATE. IF YOU DO DECIDE TO GO TO 36V I SUGGEST 36V AND 15-20A BRUSHED CONTROLLER. ON A 24V SETUP DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH YOU WANT TO PEDAL. YOU CAN USE A SMALLER AMP CONTROLLER TO INCREASE YOUR RANGE BUT IT LOWERS YOUR TORQUE. A HIGHER AMP CONTROLLER ALLOWS YOU TO CLIMB HILLS WITH VERY LITTLE EFFORT WITH THE DOWNSIDE OF DECREASE RANGE. BUT THE TYPE OF MOTOR YOU HAVE DOESNT CONSUME ALOT OF POWER VERSUS A HUB MOTOR AT THE SAME SPEED. ALSO WHEN DC MOTORS GET UP TO THEIR MAX SPEED THE POWER CONSUMPTION GOES DOWN DRASTICALLY VS STARTING THE MOTOR FROM A STAND STILL. MY SUGGESTION IS 24V 25-30A CONTROLLER 36V 15-20A MAKE SURE ITS A BRUSHED CONTROLLER AND DONT WORRY ABOUT HOW MANY CONNECTORS THEY HAVE. IVE DEALT WITH WWW.TNCSCOOTERS.COM THEY ARE SUPER CHEAP AND QUICK TO DELIVER. 2-3 DAY PRIORITY MAIL. GOOD LUCK. IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS JUST POST A REPLY. SORRY FOR THE CAPS. I REALLY CANT SEE ON THE COMPUTER IM USING (NOT MINE).
In a way i agree with you depending on what type of scooter she is talking about. A mobility scooter or a motor cycle scooter. Both would have different motors wound to provide differnt torque but essentially the (no load speed) would almost be the same. Im currently working on a 48v 1000w cylone project capeable of about 35mph. Even currie uspd setups have high rpm brushless motors to propel the rider that operate no where near their design rpms under load. Brushless motors may be efficient but are they really cost effective. I think she was looking at the cost effectiveness by recyling an old scooter for the motor. In theory her set up would work and would provide great assistance and depending on how far she wants to go and at what speed... it could be no assitance vehicle but its in no comparison to a motorcycle. Alot of things we use in this forum arent ideal but as long as they work and achieve the goal set forth we need to advise people accordingly.In this case shes working with what shes got. Not my cup of tea but i would run the same thing if i had the materials and thats all i had.
The above site led to http://www.cn-dcmotor.com/ .. and you should be able to hunt around matching pictures to find out which motor you actually have.
Looks like they primarily sell brushed motors.. that's good, cause those are simple. The motor has just two leads, a + and - and the controller will have a M+ and M- to connect to the motor.
The controller should also have B+ and B- to connect to the battery. The final connector for a minimal controller would be throttle. You do have to be careful to buy a throttle that matches your controller. If the controller wants a resistive throttle it will say the throttle should be 0-5k ohm or perhaps 0-10k ohm. Make sure the throttle you get has a matching ohm rating. The controller instead may want a hall effect throttle.
Controllers sometimes do more like control lights etc but it's not necessary especially as it's simple to do the lights in other ways.
- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
Show us pictures and make some diagrams, we'd love to help you. You can test to see if it's brushless by connecting a battery directly to the motor.
XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-
LOL I gotta laugh at this one. I think we established by going to the unite motor website that theses are brushed motors but i kinda had to laugh at what u said. That if it was a brushless motor i could see her testing hall wires across open battery terminals. OOPS no more sensors.
yeah. should have mentioned that they should be thick wires. sheesh, talk about just enough knowledge to be dangerous.
XM-3000...
-DC-DC converter replaced with a Dell D220P-01 power supply.
-72V mod
-Expensive bank charger until I come up with something better... Still trying.
-
The controllers for a brushed motor are much cheaper and more robust than a brushless controller. However you must pedal once from a stop to get it going, and the brushes need to be replaced once a year or so (depending on miles).
Please post a pic of your trike and the motor.
It sounds like you want to use as much of the stuff that you already have, as is possible. I understand, but I'm pretty sure you will be very disappointed with the performance of that small a motor on a trike. I would sell it on EBAY, somewhere theres a kids scooter that needs that motor.
Find a place that has good customer service (like TNC or others) and order the motor and controller at the same time from the same vendor. You might want to look at a brushless front hub-motor kit like a 409. Its an easy install.
How long are the bike trips you want to use power on? Do you live in a hilly area? How many gears does your trike have?
Holly crap, information overload! ha ha I'm thrilled to see so many responses though, very exciting to say the least.
Okay, I'm going to try and address everything I can:
Yes, I am aware that the motor I have is probably not ideal for speed, power, range, etc. The guy I WAS working with made me aware of that and once he found out what I planned to do he agreed that the motor would be "acceptable". Basically, my furthest trip one way is about a mile (my daughter's school). Everything else is closer (grocery, post office, convenience store,etc) and I work from home so it's mainly a little errand runner that will save me unnecessary gas usage for the multiple little tasks I do all week.
I live in Florida and there aren't really any hills in the major cities like where I live so that's not an issue.
I do know that I'll have to start out peddling from a stop before applying the throttle.... or the juice from my batter will be sucked dry quickly as I understand it. I plan to peddle a bit too so I was looking more for an "assist" type bike since my chunky butt could use some exercise anyway. =)
I'm strapped financially which was the main motivation for the start of this project initially, so I can't really afford to purchase any unnecessary parts unless things begin to break down (and I'm sure they will). So, I do appreciate the suggestions on better speed, range, etc. but I just can't afford to buy something just for the sake of it right now. It's a single mom thing. ;)
Ummm... lemme see.... someone mentioned something about the throttle type matching the controller and purchasing both at the same time. There is a throttle already on the bike and it's the kind that you twist like a motorcycle handle... the speed increases as you twist. Unfortunately, I don't know what the specifics are for it since I didn't make the purchase or install it myself. I don't see anything on it that would provide that kind of information to me either. Sounds like I'll be picking things blindly as far as that goes and the situation kinda sucks, but I gotta do my best with what I have I guess.
I'm going to add images in a minute. I tried to insert them, but the file size isn't within the parameters set so I gotta do some reducing. As a famous robot dude declares: "I'll be back"
Thanks everyone for all your help!
-Michele
Ok, here are the pictures. Pretty sweet set up huh? I bet all you hot shots are drooling with envy. lol
Oh, forgot to ask.... based on the information I've been able to find (and the link provided by a helpful poster) I think this controller would be best. Anyone disagree?
http://]http://www.tncscooters.com/CT-811B9.php
The only thing is, when I look at the diagream the labels are throwing me off.
I need: Power/battery, motor, throttle, charger, & key/ignition.
The diagram says: Power, motor, six wire connector, Lock Connector, Power Indicator, Charger Connector, & Brake Connector
Does Lock Connector = my Key/Ignition?
Does Six Wire Connector = My throttle?
Power Indicator & Brake Connectors remain unused, right?
Also, the Lock connector on this controller looks a little different than what would fit mine. Can someone show me what the receiving end is supposed to look like for this part? Can connectors be changed if they don't happen to match?
I also found this motor that I think might work and the connectors look more like mine.... but it is more expensive and I'd rather buy the other if I can. http://www.electricscooterparts.com/hookup/SPD-24300.htm
Thanks!
I still would go for a more robust controller. I would use the controller i posted in the earlier post. this one seems like it would offer lack luster performance. Does anyone else agree? Some of these are chinese controllers and connecters wont match. You prob will have to make your own. Use the diagram as a guide. I chose the controller cause its beefier with few connectors.
I suppose also if someone wants to steal your bike they will steal it and key ignition is nothing but a cosmetic scare. Other wise you could use the ebrake connector to do the same thing if you had to. Just post nice pictures and buy so wire connectors and we will walk you through the setup one connection at a time.
Good! on flat land and short distance that motor should work OK. If you decide you need a little more torque, you can change one of the sprockets to a different gear ratio. One way will be higher top speed with lower torque (hill-climbing power) and the other way is lower top speed and more torque.
If your controller is rated to accept 36 volts (most will accept anything between 24-48 volts), then by adding a 12V battery in series to bring your pack up to 36 volts will give you a higher top speed.
The TNC web-catalogue is very educational. The brake-interrupt wire-pair (if you have them on your model of controller) means if you have a compatible throttle, when you apply the brake, a signal cuts the power so you cant have both "ON" at the same time.
a "Hall-Effect" switch is a clever device that is used several ways. There is a substance that will conduct electricity when a magnet is next to it, and will not conduct when you take the magnet away. It is an on/off switch that shouldn't wear out.
In a throttle there is one magnet that can be moved across 5 sensors, each with a resistor of a different value. In this way, the controller sends (as an example) perhaps 5 volts into the throttle, and depending on its position, 1,2,3,4, or 5 volts is sent back to the controller to tell it how much acceleration you want.
24 volts will fry it instantly!
In a brushless motor, Hall effect sensors tell the fixed stator of copper coils where they are in relation to the spinning magnets on the wheel hub. The coils are electro-magnets that are constantly turning on/off to push/pull the permanent magnets on the wheel. The timing is important for it to work. The two power wires should be the fattest wires to handle all the current. Hooked up backwards it wont damage it, it will just spin backwards.
Some controllers have "regen" so when you're slowing down, the motor acts as a generator and puts a small amount of energy back into the battery.
Get a schematic with the color-code for the wires of the motor you have, and also the controller you buy. If they are from different manufacturers, the colors won't match, and the sockets will not mate, but they can all be cut apart and attched so that they work.
I don't think I can just purchase one new battery when I already have two that are used... I'd have to replace all three if I want to goto a 36V. Rght? I can't afford to buy anything more than what I need to get it running right now.
My question is though, can I buy a 36V controller to run on my 24V set up right now? So long as the Amps are 15-20 like you suggested above?? Cauze if this can work for my curent set up, I'm thinking that it will be easier to convert to a larger unit when I have to replace the motor.... which I imagine will be within the year since it's used huh? =)
Will the 36V controller mess up my 24V set up?
Sorry, can you post a link of the controller your suggesting?
I hate to embarrass myself but I don't know what a sprocket is?
This may have just answered the question I asked above, but just to confirm.... are you saying that I can purchase a 36V controller to run my current 24V set up without doing any harm? If so, then I can upgrade at a later date when the time comes to start replacing parts.
I'm not sure I'm following you on everything here, but I think I do have a "Hall Effect" because the throttle on my bike looks like the ones being sold on the TNC website. Are you saying that the throttle is NOT compatible with the 24V set up? I don't know what you mean by frying it instantly?
lol, yeah...um, if the wire colors don't match I'll be right back here because I'm not slappin something together when I don't know what the heck I'm doing. =)
Well.... doesn't the key ignition turn the motor on and off? If it's removed then the motor would constantly be "on", wouldn't it? Besides,I need as much deterant as I can get.... kids r stealing bikes all the time in my area. Even had my $20 used/beat up weedwacker stolen this morning and it was only out for 15mins when I ran in from doing yard work to pee! lol What the hell is the world comin too?!
By the way, the wire currently cross connecting the two batteries together is 8 gage... thats thick enough right? I was going to buy the same gage to wire the two batteries into the connector to plug into the new controller I purchase.
This ok?
Ahhhh, Cool! I just caught the link you included. For some reason it wasn't a live link in your post so I missed it. http://www.tncscooters.com/CT-201C6.php The one I showed you could handle more WATTs, whats the differents with less or more?? Does that part have anything to do with power, or the number of accessories it can handle?
This one is a 24V, so can ya take a look at my question from your previous suggestion of a 36V?
Once I get that answered, I think I'll be ready to finally make a purchase today. I supposed picking up some extra connectors would be advisable just incase I need them huh? =)
Oh.... I can just get my wire from HomeDepot or something, right?
The controller you chose is a an exact match for the spec of the motor. But most of the time when companies make a kit they rate their kits at what the motor draw at a certain speed under a certain load. Most of the time this is a conservative rating. The motor can handle a little over double that amount for short periods of time. The motor you have is rated at 240W. The controller you picked will put out 252w. The performance of the motor will be kinda weak and not up to par with what its capeable. The controler i chose gives you enough head room and an extra boost of power under full load my controller of choice puts out 720w. This is a great amount of power than should accelerate you from a dead stop and power you up some hills if you encounter any. The motor wont run at this high power all the time. When you get up to your cruising speed the motor consumes alot less power especially if you are pedaling along. Thats why I chose the controller so you can get the most out of that motor. The motor looks pretty stout and even has a heatsink to wick away heat so i see no problems. Going to 36v. It really recommended that all the batteries be about the same age or otherwise you will lose range. You will also need another charger so yeah it will cost more money to run at 36v. The wire you have is pretty thick and its overkill. On most of my setups I run 10-12 gauge wire. It maybe kinda hard to make you connections and find connectors that fit such a large gauge of wire i suggest you rewire down to 12 gauge it will be easier and less of a headache to deal with. you can get wire from your local radio shack or home depot. Your throttle controls your speed from dead stop to full speed. The all the key switch does is cut off the power to your system. They can still hop on your bike and ride off with it... they just wont have the power assist enabled.
You throttle should have three wires that will connect to 3 wires on the controller to control your speed. What the poster was saying is that the throttle works on a 5v system and if you connect 24v to it you wil fry it. But you arent going to connect 24v to it you are going to connect it to the controller and let the controller send the 5v it needs for the throttle to operate and get the appropriate signal to start the motor. The wire colors wont match but you only have so many wire pairs if it doesnt work one way switch it around. There is only so many combinations you can have.
Another note on the controller. To further prove my point on the controller. Brushed hub motors are rated in watts. You may have a motor rated for 500w@36v. More likely the controller the company pairs with it is capeable of 36v and 30A. When you do the math thats 1080w. Double the motors rating. The motors rating is what it can do constantly. But the motor can handle more than double under peak/load conditions for short periods of time. So your motor is 240w it could take 500w peak i gave you a little more if 720w but it shouldnt harm it since it wont be drawing it constantly. The nature of dc motors at certain speed the are going to draw a certain amount of current. Normally at lower speeds a motor pulls more current either because its not efficient at lower speeds or its under a load. At higher speeds its in that butter zone and uses less power. Under a stall/locked no movement it can draw unlimited amount of current. The purpose of the controller is to stop the motor from killing its self. But you can go to far like did and take a motor rated at 36v 500w and put a 60v 100A controller on it. It was fast as hell but the motor died a sudden death. 500w vs 6000W is overkill and crazy stupid.12 times more than what i was rated for. You are safe the controller i chose puts you barely at 1.5 times the rating which is pretty conservative and spot on. Not risky at all. Just get the controller i chose and you will be fine if anyone objects speak now or forever hold your peace
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