Please HELP an ignorant chick with this electric crap! - Unite 24V motor = custom e-bike mess!

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puppetplanet
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Re: Unite 24V motor

Another note on the controller. To further prove my point on the controller. Brushed hub motors are rated in watts. You may have a motor rated for 500w@36v. More likely the controller the company pairs with it is capeable of 36v and 30A. When you do the math thats 1080w. Double the motors rating. The motors rating is what it can do constantly. But the motor can handle more than double under peak/load conditions for short periods of time. So your motor is 240w it could take 500w peak i gave you a little more if 720w but it shouldnt harm it since it wont be drawing it constantly. The nature of dc motors at certain speed the are going to draw a certain amount of current. Normally at lower speeds a motor pulls more current either because its not efficient at lower speeds or its under a load. At higher speeds its in that butter zone and uses less power. Under a stall/locked no movement it can draw unlimited amount of current. The purpose of the controller is to stop the motor from killing its self. But you can go to far like did and take a motor rated at 36v 500w and put a 60v 100A controller on it. It was fast as hell but the motor died a sudden death. 500w vs 6000W is overkill and crazy stupid.12 times more than what i was rated for. You are safe the controller i chose puts you barely at 1.5 times the rating which is pretty conservative and spot on. Not risky at all. Just get the controller i chose and you will be fine if anyone objects speak now or forever hold your peace

I know for a fact that the motor I have is 24v and not 36v because it stated that fact on the scooter paperwork somewhere when I had possession of everything... which I don't anymore. =( I just don't know the amount of wattage it had, but I see your point on being able to push it a bit with the watts and still be ok.

How about the voltage... can I buy a 36v controller NOW, use it on my 24V set up, and then upgrade w another battery,etc. later?

Or should I just get the original 24v one you told me to buy?

Also, can you just explain (I'll try to understand) the difference in the number of amps that some of the other 24v controllers can handle? What are amps for? Higher amps equal more power... or is that the Watts? Are amps just for the purpose of those extra accessories on a bike like lights, breaks, etc?

One more thing.... assuming I purchase that 24V controller your suggesting... can you tell me what connector pieces and how many I need to have? I'm just going to buy them all in the event that everything needs to be changed out. Better to be prepared than waiting another week or so because I didn't have the right connectors. =)

spinningmagnets
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Re: Unite 24V motor

Dear puppetplanet, When a 12-volt battery is "full" it will read about 13-1/2 volts on a cheap electronics meter. As you use it up, the voltage will go down until it reaches a point when using any deeper will damage it. (10-1/2ish volts?)

To help save your batteries so they last as long as possible, the controllers all have a "Low Voltage Cutout" (LVC), so the controller must match the battery pack voltage.

When a 36-volt controller senses the battery pack is down to, lets say, 30 volts? it will blink a light and deny power to the motor. So you can't use a 36-volt controller with a 24-volt battery pack. (I was wrong in my previous post)

If you buy a 36-volt controller now, you must install a 36-volt battery pack. If the two batteries you have now havent been used very much, you can add one more without hurting them.

If you've used the two batteries for a few months then added a third, the old ones would drag it down when driving, and the charger would boil the new one from overcharging while the other two need more charging.

You can keep the motor and throttle regardless of what voltage you use.

When you are riding a 10-speed bike and you change the gear because you arrive at a steep hill, you are moving the front of the chain from a big sprocket to a small sprocket. Go to Google image and search "sprocket".

The ignition/key wire is just an on/off switch that allows the controller to send power to the throttle. Some controllers have it, some don't.

A Watt is a measurement of power and 745 Watts is one horsepower (HP). You can get 700 Watts from 10 volts times 70 amps, or 70 volts times 10 amps. Volts are like pressure, and amps are like volume of flow. High amps requires fat wire (like the diameter of pipe)

The motor will get a little hot when accelerating while using 36 volts (as it was designed for 24 volts), but it will cool off when just cruising along. Many people feel the higher speed is worth the trouble, but if you drive up a really long hill, you may burn out the controller or motor (not a problem for you!)

When you are testing wires to find out what they do, you will damage a 5-volt throttle if you put 24-volts into it, that is what I meant by "frying it".

dogman
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Re: Unite 24V motor

Wow. good luck with your project. If it doesn't work out, next time you have some money, get a front hub motor kit for the trike. Mine works really well, going faster than I need it to. The trikes make great grocery getters.

Be the pack leader.
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Re: Unite 24V motor

Dear puppetplanet, When a 12-volt battery is "full" it will read about 13-1/2 volts on a cheap electronics meter. As you use it up, the voltage will go down until it reaches a point when using any deeper will damage it. (10-1/2ish volts?)

To help save your batteries so they last as long as possible, the controllers all have a "Low Voltage Cutout" (LVC), so the controller must match the battery pack voltage.

When a 36-volt controller senses the battery pack is down to, lets say, 30 volts? it will blink a light and deny power to the motor. So you can't use a 36-volt controller with a 24-volt battery pack. (I was wrong in my previous post)

If you buy a 36-volt controller now, you must install a 36-volt battery pack. If the two batteries you have now havent been used very much, you can add one more without hurting them.

Cool, thanks for answering that question for me. I don't have a battery meter on my bike, is that something that is difficult to install? If not, what plug would it attach to on the controller?..... oh, I just checked TNC website and it looks like I would have to purchase and install a new throttle in order to obtain a power meter, not sure I'm ready for all that new wiring just yet. *grin*

When you are riding a 10-speed bike and you change the gear because you arrive at a steep hill, you are moving the front of the chain from a big sprocket to a small sprocket. Go to Google image and search "sprocket".

Okay, so since I only have two of those sprocket things on my bike and one is being used by the motor.... I would have to take the sprocket used by the chain off and install a larger or smaller sprocket depending on what gear I want to use? I get the idea, I would just have to figure out what gear I would prefer using at all times since I can't really change gears anymore... looks like I'm stuck with one peddling spead and I think I remember being told about that from the beginning. I'll have to look into the cost for that, but it's a neat option.

A Watt is a measurement of power and 745 Watts is one horsepower (HP). You can get 700 Watts from 10 volts times 70 amps, or 70 volts times 10 amps. Volts are like pressure, and amps are like volume of flow. High amps requires fat wire (like the diameter of pipe)

Ahhh, I think I'm starting to undestand it a little.... but if you don't mind the extra question just for the hell of it.... what would be the advantage of purchasing a controller with higher amps... more juice release at once = more speed when the throttle is applied and faster start from a stop position?? <-- this would be opposed to a smaller amount of amps, which would mean that I'd have to peddle more to get going from a stopped position?? (If I am understanding it correctly)

The motor will get a little hot when accelerating while using 36 volts (as it was designed for 24 volts), but it will cool off when just cruising along. Many people feel the higher speed is worth the trouble, but if you drive up a really long hill, you may burn out the controller or motor (not a problem for you!)

When you are testing wires to find out what they do, you will damage a 5-volt throttle if you put 24-volts into it, that is what I meant by "frying it".

Okay, the batteries in my current set up have been used for a little while so I would have to put off the upgrade for now due to added cost for new set of three batteries. BUT, if I understand you correctly, I wouldn't necessarily have to replace the motor when I do upgrade to 36V because of the fact that the area I live in doesn't have hills to climb and theorectially wouldn't cause anything to burn out. Basically, I'd have to buy a new 36V controller and a new set of batteries to upgrade at a later date... right?

However, a 36V upgrade would pose a new question/problem: The black box I have would technically fit 3 of those 12v batteries, but then nothing else would fit in there and I planned to put the controller inside the box. If I go 36V, I'm thinking I'd have to move the entire works to that back basket (bummer) and that would mean longer throttle wires.... does extending the wire length cause any issue with performance?

spinningmagnets
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Re: Unite 24V motor

The motor will take as many amps as you throw at it, but if you stay on the max throttle too long, it will get too much heat.

Since you can throttle how much power you are demanding from the controller, the amp rating is the maximum volume of power it will put out. Most people don't have the discipline to be gentle with the throttle to keep the controller/motor cool enough. When they are pedalling the throttle is usually all the way on.

Having a lower amp rating on the controller will limit your acceleration, but it will also make your batteries last longer and give you more range (and lessen the possibility of frying the motor/controller on a long hill).

Right now I would recommend getting a 24-volt controller with a medium amp setting. When your batteries wear out in a year or so, you can decide if you want a higher top speed, then you can get a 36-volt battery+controller.

Trust me, by that time you will be famous in your neighborhood, and you will not have any problems selling the 24-volt controller to someone who wants a similar set-up.

The controller should be set out in the air with the aluminum baseplate fins exposed to the breeze (this is called a heatsink) if it doesnt have aluminum fins on the bottom, get a finned plate and glue it on. They can be found free inside old junk computers like this:

http://www.v2conference.com/shower-cabinet/images/Aluminum%20Profile-s002/Heat_Sink_Profiles.jpg

The controller can be inside the box to reduce theft, but you must cut a hole in the side of the box so the fins stick out into the air.

If you wanted a real hot rod, and weren't worried about abusing the batteries, you could shove 48-volts through a high-amp controller into the motor. Some people have done things like this because they could afford to burn out some of the parts once in a while. Guys who do this often have an electric fan that comes on when a sensor triggers that the parts are getting hot, this will add extra cooling.

Some TNC throttles have tiny battery charge level lights like green, yellow, and red. Driving only two miles before you begin charging means you won't have any depth of discharge (DOD) problems.

Some people attach the "CycleAnalist" ($25?), I was talking about a multi-meter like this:

http://www.warmyourfloor.com/ProductImages/p30756_500.jpg

There are two great sites for E-bike information. This one, and Endless-Sphere:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=2

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=3

puppetplanet
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Re: Unite 24V motor

Damn, and I just gave away an old computer too! I'm sure I'll come across another one, people are giving away stuff for free around here all the time.... thats how I got the old scooter & motor. =)

I did already order the controller that the other guy suggested, it's this one: http://www.tncscooters.com/CT-201C6.php

Hopefully the amps should be suitable. I don't imagine driving outside of my 2 mile round trip radius at first because it's been YEARS since I've been on a bike (and I'm not telling you how many), but I'm already excited about the prospect of having this thing completed so I'm sure I'll be looking for a bigger better set up eventually.

Im already famous in the neighborhood.... I am the puppet lady afterall. =)

Dave-s
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Re: Unite 24V motor

To make thing short and easy:
You should buy this controller: http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101171
or here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Electric-E-Scooter-Bike-Motor-Controller-24V-500W-LBD14_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1019Q7c3...

For the battery connection you will need this connector: http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101165

And you might need to replace the connector on your throttle cable (depending on if you throttle connector has 3 or 4 pins) to this: http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101162

By the looks of it, your motor might be a bit small to carry the weight of the bike + batts + you, but you might be surprised.
You can upgrade to this motor, and get more power: http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=106120
But you will need to replace the sproket to this: http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=106008 so it will fit the bike chain.

puppetplanet
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Re: Unite 24V motor

I already ordered the controller that someone else previously suggested. I appreciate the links, but a couple of them were pointing to items that are currently out of stock and based on information already obtained elsewhere... it will be at least a couple weeks before they "might" expect them to arrive.

I also purchased each of the connectors available just incase I needed them (including the battery connector), but thanks for that link too!

I'm a HUGE fan of eBay, have a seller account myself. But I try to avoid doing business with certain items like electrical, video games, etc. because those companies seem to be really slow about shipping, responding to e-mails, and resolving problems that might occur with the item. All of this on top of the exorbant shipping fees they charge just don't make it worth while. I actually did send questions out to a couple of those sellers... including the one you suggested. One person responded so far and it was a very short non-descriptive answer that lead to more questions that I just didn't bother asking since they didn't seem eager to be a sales person.

I'm pretty cure my chain size is a #25 and the new upgrade motor your suggesting accomodates a #25. So I'm just wondering why I would need a new sprocket that would result in the need to purchase a new chain with it? Is there a benefit to the different size chain & sprocket?

puppetplanet
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Re: Unite 24V motor

By the looks of it, your motor might be a bit small to carry the weight of the bike + batts + you, but you might be surprised.

PS: I'm not THAT chunky. lol

spinningmagnets
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Re: Unite 24V motor

On flat land with a short 2-mile range, you are the perfect EV candidate.

It looks like you have the common configuration of delta trike (2-wheels in back, "tadpole" is 2 wheels in front)

Your front sprocket on the pedal axle drives the primary chain to a 3-speed internally-geared hub with a planetary gear-set. A second chain connects the 3-speed hub (which is configured to act as an intermediate "jack-shaft") to the rear axle.

The rear axle is usually a solid bar all the way across. Your fabricator cut out the center, so your pedalling powers only the right rear wheel, and the motor powers the left rear wheel.

A "freewheel" is a simple and clever device that allows you to coast without pedalling. If your motor sprocket does not have a freewheel, the motor will spin all the time that the left wheel is spinning. This may cause some drag when you try to pedal. The motor shaft "may" have a freewheeling sprocket. If yes, the chain+sprocket will spin, but not the motor shaft.

spinningmagnets
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Re: Unite 24V motor

When the old batteries wear out, forget about higher voltage or expensive lithium batteries. Have you heard about "Bio-Diesel" where you gat free old used vegetable oil from behind a restaurant?

You need a pair of THESE:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=150&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=75

marcus
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Re: Please HELP an ignorant chick with this electric crap! - Uni

hi
did not read all of the posts but i looked at your profile.
i happen to live in palmetto fl just over the skyline bridge.
i have all kind of parts around my garage waiting for future projects.
i'll get you rollin in no time if you can bring your trike to me..
right now i'm a bright house cable guy (my name is not larry)lol
i used to fix mobility scotters and power chairs for the elderly.
befor that i worked for evrider aka city bug (went out of biz)

marcus
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Re: Please HELP an ignorant chick with this electric crap! - Uni

PS.
hopefully you bring the trike and leave with it same day.

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Re: Unite 24V motor

Have you heard about "Bio-Diesel" where you gat free old used vegetable oil from behind a restaurant?

On the 'transportation of inedible kitchen grease' getting the grease for 'free' can be a way to earn you some time in the slammer. It's a kind of theft, it seems, as there are businesses who do recycling of used vegetable oil.

- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- Electrified Electra To

deronmoped
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Re: Unite 24V motor

WOW, look at all the help. I'm going use a picture of a beautiful women in my profile and change my name to marymoped, next time I have a problem :)

Hey, how do we know you are not already doing that, some guy disguising yourself as a women to get all this extra attention from us guys?

Well anyways, I was going to suggest you need to find someone in your area willing to help. I would, but my batteries on my bike are only good for 40 miles, about 2,500 miles short. I see marcus has volunteered already, probably your best bet.

I was also going to suggest you just bypass everything. That's how I going to run my bicycle I'm building.

You need three things, motor, battery and heavy duty push button. Hook the positive of the motor to the push button, the other connection on the push button to the positive on the battery, next, hook the negative of the motor to the negative of the battery. Start pedaling the trike, hit the push button and "away you go"!

Deron.

Dave-s
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Re: Unite 24V motor

There is no way that this will work on her setup, unless she starts pedaling and only then engages the motor.
The motor is connected to the wheel via a small sprocket. The motor will need to produce a lot of tourqe to get her going from a standing position, and if there is no current limitation the the motor will be fried in no time.

dogman
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Re: Unite 24V motor

I tend to agree, but don't know that for a fact. Too bad she has so much invested allready, a front hub works great on a trike, and any kit could have been easier, unless the kit comes with too many broken parts. Amazing how much response was generated by a good atavar.

Be the pack leader.
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36 volt lifepo4 mongoose mtb
24 volt sla + nicad EV Global

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Re: Unite 24V motor

Wow guys, I can remove the avatar if it makes you feel better. And not that it matters, but the avatar was added after the first post or two... once I figured out how to do it.

I guess it's not just the women that are jealous of other women, but then again, thats for high school.... but I do appreciate the flattery of being called beautiful. Thank you. And it is a change from the treatment I received from local bike & scooter shops who seemed to think a woman who didn't know what she was doing was a waste of their time.

I've already ordered the controller so when it arrives I'll post photos of the bike (not me since it seems to distrub you) and let you guys know if the entire thing was a failure.... or not.

-Michele aka, could be a man.
I appreciate being welcomed regardless of my gender. =)

PS: If the mods wouldn't find it offensive, I'd stick a picture up there of my middle finger. lol

deronmoped
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Re: Unite 24V motor

Dave, that is one reason why I said to start pedaling the bike first, a weak motor may overheat and also it's not such a big jolt if you have a powerful motor or the gearing.

Michele, I like your avatar. I'm just kicking up a little dust, keeps the forum from being too bland.

That part of being a women must suck, no respect, bike/auto mechanics automatically think they can take advantage of woman then kick her to the curb when they are done.

Yeah, get the controller and we will walk you through getting it hooked up. Not real complicated, once you look at the labels on the wires.

We will not kick you to the curb here.

Deron.

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Re: Unite 24V motor

I know you guys were just giving me a hard time... that's why I dished out a bit of sarcasm of my own. I tried to change my avatar to the image below but the site wouldn't allow me even though it was within the required specifics.... it must have known. =)

Pug.jpg

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Re: Unite 24V motor

This is completely off topic (like the las post WASNT!) lol

But I was wondering.... would it be more beneficial to put 26" wheels or 16" wheels on my bike trailer? I'm making one out of wood to carry my postal packages & groceries as I don't think the rear basket will be big enough.

Will one size offer less resistance than the other?

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Re: Unite 24V motor

big wheels offer less resistance, but I doubt it would make much difference when using the motor.

My wife likes to say, nobody is a dog on the internet. Most avatars we know aren't the actual person, but somehow we all seemed to think yours was genuine. I think your thread title was a bit likey to lure us in too.

You'll be suprised how much you can carry in the trike basket. You may not need a trailer as much as you think.

Be the pack leader.
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puppetplanet
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Re: Unite 24V motor

The size of the packages I generally mail on a regular basis for my business do not fit in the basket on the back of the bike. Despite the fact that I can stack them... the boxes are so large that more than one would be inconvenient to carry in the bike as it is. Thats why I need the trailer.

Regardess of the draw, (be it the avatar or the choice of title), that caused some people to stop and answer, I appreciate the help. Thanks!

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Re: Unite 24V motor

When you want to get a trailer, swing by a thrift store to take a look. You can make one with cheap parts, or just get a kiddie trailer and cut the cloth top off to make it a flatbed that you can box in like a truck bed.

Check this link and scan the pics for some ideas. I got a refrigerator dolley and a 20" bike (both) for $12.

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2082-what-about-trailer%3F

deronmoped
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Re: Unite 24V motor

When I was thinking about getting a trailer, I came to the same conclusion as spinningmagnets, a kiddie trailer. It's lightweight, already built, can be had very cheaply at a yard sale and there is probably stock hitch that will work for you.

Deron.

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Re: Please HELP

Ok, the controller & connector pieces I ordered arrived this morning. Of course, I have a couple questions now. =)

BATTERY (See Picture Below)- I had to order the brake connector set because my batteries are not yet wired with a connector on them. The first thing I noticed is that the controller connector for the power/battery has three wires: two are 16 gage, one black & one red, and the other is a 20 gage red. From what I understand, the battery is only going to have two wires going into the 2 pin battery connector (one red wire & one black). So, what do I do about the 3 pin/3 wire set up on the controller? What is the second, smaller red wire for? Says "Output" on the spec sheet. How do I handle this third wire. And.... yes, I read that the battery get connected to the controller last.

Battery1.jpg

THROTTLE (See Picture Below)- The throttle on my bike is a 3 pin connector with three 20 gage wires (black, red, green). The Controller has a 4 pin set up with black, red, green, gray. I have an extra three pin connector that I can change out on the controller.... but what do I do with the extra (gray) wire? Is it ok to omit it?

ThrottleX1.jpg

KEY SWITCH (See picture below) - The only remaining un-used connector on the controller is labled as "Brake" with a two pin connector set up. It has a black wire and a red wire both 20 gage. The turn key on my bike needs to connect to the controller, can I use the brake connector?? NOTE: The turn key on my bike is also a two pin set up, but the wires are orange & yellow. How do I determine which wires connect properly to the "Brake" switch??

Brake_Key.jpg

FYI, the other two pin connector on the controller in photo above is for the charger so that one is not an option.... this "Brake" connector is the only one left.

Thanks for your help!

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Re: Please HELP

Well, I got impatient waiting for you guys so I gave it a shot trying to figure out the details on my own. I've got everything wired and connected, when I turned the throttle I heard a "click" noise, but I never charged the battery since I've had the bike returned to me about a week ago so I'm charging overnight and will see what happens in the morning. =)

Wondering what I did?

Battery: I cut off the battery connector on the controller, and attached the new connector I purchased (omitting the third smaller wire).

Throttle: I cut off the four pin connector on the controller, and attached a three pin connector that I purchased (omitting the gray wire from the controller)

Brake/key: You can't see it very well in the picture above, but there is a white wire that is patched into the yellow a bit down from my fingers. The person in the electrical department at Home Depot said that white wires are neutral/black.... so, I assumed that the orange would be "red" and wired everything as such to the new connectors that I purchased and snapped them together.

Nothing exploded, sparked, or smoked.... so we will see the final outcome after she's been charged. =)

Dave-s
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Re: Please HELP

too bad you snipped the power/battery connector on the controller. It doesnt really matter how many wire come out of it as long as it only has 2 pins, one + and one -. Most likely the small red wire was connected to one of the other bigger wires.
You did good with the throttle connector.
Do you see where the white wire on your bike leads?

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Re: Please HELP

The battery connector on the controller had 3 pins. They only sell two pin battery connectors, which is why I was confused.

The white wire belongs to the key switch, it comes out of the same thing as the yellow and orange, but the white was patched into the yellow.... probably because they only had a 2 pin connector??? Don't know?

Either way, the bike has been charging overnight and still only one "click" when I turn the throttle. The "click" noise is coming from the controller. It's not a constant clicking... it's ONE click when I turn the throttle, doesn't matter if I hold it at max or not.... one click. =)

I want to confirm that I did the wiring correctly.... I think maybe the batteries are old. They LOOK old, so I'm thinking possibly they arn't holding a charge?? I don't know how to determine if they are any good. I have a voltage meter around here somewhere... not sure if thats what I need to test the battery, but it wouldn' make any difference because I don't know how to use a voltage meter. =)

Dave-s
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Last seen: 9 years 8 months ago
Joined: Monday, March 10, 2008 - 03:22
Points: 58
Re: Please HELP

It would be helpfull if you add pictures of where the wires go, not only the connectors. I can't tell what that third wire connected to the battery functions as.

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