My XM-5000li Experience

Right guys I know the specs now say 21 cells but I saw a picture of the battery box of a 5000 and you could see it had 24cells so they must be making them. Just hoping I guess. That would put you about 85v thats what I'm running in my 3500li. With the TSL60-20 charger that would put you at 3.62v per cell with 24cells. The pictures also showed a battery montior mounted to the left handlebar. Did they come with that?.With the heavier windings in that motor I would think it could handle a alot more than 3.2v more. Does anybody know what the motor and controller are actually rated for? Regen Braking? Thats easy to do I don't know why they are not using it. Since these are likely to be used for alot of "around town" stop and go driving I think it makes sense. Anyway I'm still hoping for some good news because I would be eager to buy one if they are worth it. By the way that charger connector in the picture is the same as my TSL40-15 that I ordered. When your warrenty is up you could add the three cells get the TSL60-20 and you'll be at 3.62v per cell)and get about 5 more mph and have half the charging time. I charge my 24 cells in about 2.67 hrs just like they claim.
1127 klm and and going strong.
Bill-

I just found where I saw those pictures. It was on this website. I would post a link if I knew how but it's toward the bottom of the I just got my xm3500li thread it was posted by Mountain Chen. It shows six sets of 4cells all mounted in the bottom of the box. Also shows a BMS. I don't like the sound of the way those batteries are in there. They made sure you can't tell from the side if it's a 5000 because they took the pictures so you can't see if it's got that big controller hanging out there in the breeze.
Bill-
PS That motor and controller should easily handle that. The only problem will be that the LVC will be to low so hopfully it's programable, otherwise we're in the stone ages here.

Gary, the regen braking was originally part of the advertised specs for the XM-3500Li, but was pulled from the description once it was determined that they didn't have regen on them. Supposedly it can be turned on in the controller somehow. I think the issue cam up, though, that regen on this type of vehicle probably makes very little difference. It would certainly provide some level of and "engine braking" feel and slow the bike down when applied and thereby charge the batteries a small amount, but conversely without regen you can coast farther (with the engine off, you're not drawing any power.) So from what I was reading on these forums the consensus seemed to be that regen really wasn't all that useful to have on this size vehicle. Others here are probably a lot more knowledgeable about that than I am, though.

I thought that might be what you were talking about, Iccarus. That's one of Mountain Chen's bikes. The display screen is one of the BMSs that Thunder Sky has on their site: http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp?fid=84&fid2=85

I don't believe the 5000 comes from the same factory the 3500 rolls out of.

Right guys I know the specs now say 21 cells but I saw a picture of the battery box of a 5000 and you could see it had 24cells so they must be making them.

Just in case there's any doubt...

AndyH - lovely picture! Best so far in fact (after all it looks the same as an XM-3500Li or EVD from the outside)

But, what's with the extra "empty looking" single cell in the top right of the lower picture?

To the lucky riders there of the new XM-5000Li - is anyone interested in making a few videos of this moped for our blog at wattcycle.com from a rider's perspective? I really feel that people are looking for good information on these amazing new bikes, but there isn't much out there as far as good videos go. I'm looking for something that we would have the permission to drop onto our Youtube/Vimeo/Blogsite that has a walkthrough, feature review, rider's review of your new moped. Maybe some pointers to getting started, how to successfully own this moped.

It's my view that the more information out there given by the actual owners of a product instead of the marketing department the better. I'd really love to have truthful, insightful, and informational videos (of good quality and no profanity).

Is anyone down for something like this? Thanks!

You can email me about this at chad [at] wattcycle.com

Right Andy, I guess those are pictures of a newer version of the 3500. I just wanted to say that when I ordered my 4 extra cells fromm elite I thought I would get 4 lonely looking batteries like the one in your picture. I was very happy when they all came strapped in to a pack form like those in your photo,already joined in series and every thing. I took a piece of the foam packing material they used in packing (good quality stuff) gorilla taped it to the bottom of the pack and mounted it right in front of the seatbrace. The cargo pod still easily fits right in. I moved the circuit breaker and zip tied it to the seatbrace right below the two bolts on the left side of the seat brace. Then you can just leave the screws out of the cargo pod and slip it in and out in seconds. I should take some pictures but I don't have everything I need with me as I'm on vacation. I have attached individual leads to all cells and monitor them using commonsense rc balance pro cards. These cards balance the cells but work very slowly as they are made for smaller batteries. But they are good for monitoing on the run. I had them under the seat but then moved them where I can glance at them while riding.(in front of the glove box) As posted on this site by Zarlor the batteries after charging can be fairily out of balance(most about3.38to3.40v some up to 4.20) but if you take a fast run of a half mile or so they are usually well balanced then. Thanks for the pictures and info.

Lenny, Your right it should be easy to enable regen if the controller has the circuitry in it. I have to disagree with those who don't think it's worth it though. I have an electric bicycle with regen, when you pull the right brake handle it kicks in and then gets a little stonger as you hold. I hardly ever squeeze hard enough to use the brake pads anymore because I anticipate further ahead and brake a little early, this will help the life of the marginal(though better than I thought from what I've read)brakes.(pads mainly) Plus every little bit helps. It's like not keeping the change when you buy something. Why wouldn't you?

AndyH - lovely picture! Best so far in fact (after all it looks the same as an XM-3500Li or EVD from the outside)

But, what's with the extra "empty looking" single cell in the top right of the lower picture?

Hi John! The cell case (and some rubber sheet)is a spacer between the 'forward' and 'aft' packs. The front section of the battery box is about 1 1/2 inches lower - the box 'breaks' at a frame cross-tube. Andy

hi gary don't think you mentiond but are you taking the test on a dear i say it but a petrol scooter ???
or will they let you take your test on the scooter ??
as i have had to do a cbt test over in england . its compulsry bike traning and some insurance wont touch you with out this
its to say really you are compitant rider .so you can take it with a bike company for £110 pounds sterling or it you like me i managed to ask the company to use my own scooter its clasifacation was 50cc but electric scooter it was a emax 110s scooter . no probbs they said and i saved £20 pounds aswell for using my own bike but
when we got there thought we should of been refunded another £20 becouse all the students had to get there shovels out and dig all the snow but mainly ice off the school yard that we would be practicing aprox 1. 1/2 hours to sort it all out !!!!!
then when i got there they said the instructors said to me why do i not have l plates i said thats becouse the e u law changed way way back and as i past my car test so long age it would act as a full liynce to this little scooter they wasn't too shour !!! but the owner came along and said they wasn't a probblem and
by way monthes before that i alwas took a passanger my son or my girlfrend ushally she wanted to go shopping ..!!
so pased this test but the instructer did say after we all went out on the open road that i struggled to keep up to the min requiment thats 30 mph with other petrol scooter
ok it could do with been a little faster thats when i decided to opt for the vectrix scooter ..
after cbt test there is a nother test thery test and hazode paseption test they show video and you have to quick to point out the hazeds that unfold then only then can you go for the bike test on the road test and then manuvaring around cones and such like then if pass you can carrey a pasanger on a bigger bike like the vectrix scooter and obusley tear up the l plates yipee
i havent doe it yet but i think i will have to take test on big auto petrol scooter to get the classifacation as they said that it was too light ???!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ha
owell i might try to contact the test centure again as i would really like to pass my test on the vectrix and then be able to carry pasangers without l plates and in few years just be restriked to automatic scooters up to any size engine !!! chears kev

hi i was just wondering how much each cell would cost ??
and and how many would it take to fill the boots of the vectrix scooter
and wonder what range we could get out of it i/e mybe
80 miles with two on. thats the magic number as it could get me and my gal to the sea side
think if a lot of ev coul do this it would stop a lot of probblems and
woman would look on them favorably and not get too much ear rake !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and also if we managed to get to the coast at a reasnable speed ,?? ok above 30 mph with two on
then i am shure that i wouldent have a probblem charging it ok i would have to beg for a charge
but hey you never know we probbley would meet some nise people and i could always give them a ride or failling
that
plan c offer money insentive hahaha well if you want to know i acctully just laffed out loud
hey dont we all just love our babys the ev ones of corse
.kev ps i am not botherd about the cells been yellow .kev

Thunder Sky says that each cell's voltage should be checked, even before first use. After that, one should be able to re-check the voltages occasionally, in some quick and easy manner.

CAUTION: You should NOT try this unless you are SURE that you know what you are doing. It is DANGEROUS. Also, it might affect your warranty.

1. Two connections (to the battery pack's positive and negative sides) are needed, and they are already available where the Charger connects to the pack.

2. Twenty other connections are required, to the inaccessible positive side of the "bottom" 20 cells.

3. Through fuses, these lines can be used (carefully) to measure each cell's voltage.

4. To make the measurements easier, a 22-position (21 cells and OFF) 2-pole rotary switch can be used. Or, two 12-position switches could be used.

5. A simple 0 to 5 volt meter can be connected to the switch to read the selected cell's voltage.

6. If one notices that a cell is too high, it could be discharged somewhat to "balance" the cells.

7. Likewise, a "too low" cell could be charged, again, to help balance the cells.

This simple addition would allow "normal" people to occasionally check, and better maintain the health of their battery cells.

I will look for suitable parts just in case somebody wants to build one.

You should also consider to limit the potential current flow to prevent electrocution. 50mA is plenty to kill a human, and the 60V battery can deliver this.
Fuses will not prevent this, but fuses are still needed to avoid catastrophic battery damage due to accidental shorts.
Without any resistors somewhere in the line, the tab to the negative pole of cell one and the tab to the positive pole of cell 21 will have the full voltage between them.
Measuring voltages can be done through resistors with only small measurement errors being introduced. About 7.5 to 10kOhm inserted into each tab cable would probably be enough to limit the maximum current to safe levels (<10mA).

But you cannot charge or discharge through the same cable when it has resistors in it.

I solved this problem in the Vectux M-BMS by placing a fuse at each tab directly at the cell, and then a connector still inside the battery safety compartment. If cell balancing is needed, then the safety container must be opened to allow access to the cable terminals for charging. From the connector in the safety compartment also leave the very thin measuring cables, and these are all connected to the tabs through 15kOhm resistors.
That way measurements can be done any time, even when riding, without risk of electrocution. Even in a severe accident the Vectux would remain as safe (or unsafe) as without the added M-BMS.

Vectux M-BMS Schematic.

Some cells have been tabbed for direct charging in the boot, but the maximum voltage across those tabs is only about 40V.

More details on ES: Vectux BMS - Feedback, please!

I am not sure if it is moronic or ingenious, but I'm sure it has potential!

Well, fortunately I realised the moronic part of the design before building it:

It has the potential to kill!

This rather unwanted effect could occur during the making of all those connections, or during handling of the finished product, or during an accident with damage to the scooter. It could even hit an unsuspecting rescue worker trying to clean up the mess after an accident.

Hi Gary,
Where do you get the "24-pin VAL-U-LOK" connectors?

R

=======================

response to an earlier post:
I suspect the Regen is disabled in the controller to protect the Lithium Cells from getting overcharged.
For instance, when I leave home, I go down a very long, steep hill.
So, my batteries are fully charged, then I go down this long hill, where if I had regen and no BMS, I could overcharge and ruin my Lithium cells.
Without a BMS with OverVoltage protection, Regen could cause battery damage.

That's my guess; either that, or they were having trouble controlling or metering the Regen properly and it was causing bucking or too-quick stops when the Regen kicked-in.

Or, the Regen was popping the Controller for some reason; spikes etc ??

R

Mik,
Thanks for the drawing of your Manual Battery Monitoring System (M-BMS).
And, for the suggestion of current limiting in the measuring leads.

I am trying to build a system that can both Monitor and Charge or Discharge
any selected cell, so I need to get 5 (or more) amps in or out of each cell.

The Vectux M-BMS allows currents of up to 10A continuous for the 16 "full access tabs" and up to 20A continuous for all tabs when connected inside the safety container.

From the battery-cell posts we have wired to a set of automotive fuses,
one for each lead (21 cells, 22 leads). This is primarily protection
from accidental shorting of wires. Indeed, I would prefer the fuses
to be right at each cell terminal post, but then they could not be accessed
easily after the battery packs are re-assembled.
Perhaps you have a good suggestion?

I soldered 20A fuses directly into the 30A rated cables at the connection to each cell. There is not much empty space inside a Vectrix battery, so I had to make fuses which don't need bulky fuse holders. I do not mind (HAHA) if I have to take the battery apart to replace the fuse if it ever blows. It's all over-engineered by about a factor of 4, and whenever one of these fuses opens, it means that there would have been a disaster without the fuse, with very likely destruction of several or all cells in the pack! It's only an insurance against worst case scenarios, not something I expected to ever happen. But when I had put one of the batteries together again I found that 2 or 3 fuses had blown; looking closer I found that the cable insulation had been damaged in several places by mechanical forces during re-assembly without a spare millimetre. This damage had happened to the part of the cable which would have been located between the cell and any easily accessible fuse.

From there, a set of parallel 24-pin connectors will allow attaching one
or more of the following devices: a PakTrakr, a Manual-BMS, a real BMS,
an LVC circuit, or some other experimental cell-management or monitoring device.

I will probably use the 24-pin VAL-U-LOK connectors.
Again, somebody might have a better suggestion for connectors?

Please tell me more (or PM me) about the thermistor temperature
monitoring, the specific equipment that you used, and how you
"attached" the thermistor sensors.

Thanks, Gary

You could make one or more small boards which accept the tab cables and route them to two connectors instead of one. The connection to one of the connnectors is through resistors, to the other connector it is a straight low resistance connection.
Then you can have easy connectivity for measurement devices which you can handle with cold, wet, gloved hands in the rain without any risk, and another connector for when you are in the dry garage and you want to hook up the charger or discharger and move real amps.
Here are some pictures of a prototype I build, integrating current and temp sensor connectors, resistors and direct connections to the tabs via the "banana-plugs". Unfortunately it turned out to be too large to fit into the Vectux! But it shows the principle more clearly than the smaller ones I built afterwards.

Click to enlarge:

Regarding the temperature monitoring:

I use this thermometer: http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM6324&CATID=&keywords=thermometer+indoor%2Foutdoor&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOn...

Additional sensors are soldered onto very thin cables (rainbow cable) and switched through low-grade rotary switches. Some resistance does not matter much because they are 10KOhm Thermistors (at 25deg C, negative coefficient). Even if your cable connections are poor with a few Ohm resistance, it does not matter all that much.

I bet you can find a cheap electronic thermometer, cut off the sensor, measure what it it does when you change it's temperature and then find the corresponding thermistors at your local electronics store. They'll cost you less than a dollar each, I think.

AndyH reports that the frame, the rear suspension, the battery box, and the center stand of the 5000Li are NOT the same as those on the 3500Li.
More details to follow later.

The swing arm and battery box are likely very different. However, I'd be surprised if the frame is different. The difference of the swing arm is significant (including how the swing arm is mounted to the frame). So, I'd love to see details of the XM-5000Li swing arm and I'd be happy to post detailed pictures of the XM-3500Li swing arm (including suspension mounting and frame mounting details).

However, the center stand and battery box aren't very significant with regard to how the bike will ride and handle.

Look for differences in how the frame is constructed and how the front end geometry is different between an XM-3500Li and an XM-5000Li and then I'll "believe you" that the frames are different in a way that is meaningful.

BTW, please be careful with nomenclature as well - AFAIK, in usual motorcycle engineering terms the rear swing arm is not considered part of the frame. In this context (and the context I was using) the frame is the main metal structure of the bike with nothing else attached. FYI, as far as I know the Vectrix (like Vespas) use a "uni-body" design whereas the XM's / EVDs / rEV1 use a tubular frame. Generally speaking that makes Vectrii and Vespas heavier but stiffer.

on my emax, the response time between letting off the brake, and being able to accelerate is immeserable (at least by me).
on the one hill ive ever encountered where i had to stop and i wasnt able to hold the bike position without using hte brakes, the accelerator worked fast enough after letting off the brakes that i didnt roll back at all.
i dont know wat grade it was, but i do know i needed 4.5kw to hold 55kmh.

it would depend on how the controller lock out is implemented i spose.

Matt