Hi out there.
Sorry for my bad english i´m NO native speaker ;-)
Yesterday the battery warning light came on during my ride to work. Range left about 22 km, Battery about 1/3 full. I did a full charge the evening before. I reduced speed (usualy the batterywarning switchs off then (with empty battery)) but teh light just stayed on. So i made the last kilometer with 30 km/h to protect battery and system, no other sign came on (temp. or the wrench). At work i kept the vents running to cool the battery still with the Battery warning on, 22 km left and 1/3 Battery remaining. After some minutes i restartet the "ignition" but the battery-warning came every time after 30 seconds or so. I decidet to recharge the bike to see the temp and the voltage of the battery. 36°C and 130 volt. The voltage is usually near 125 v when the battery is empty.(I called the dealer to look after the Bike) The Temperature droped to 24 °C during the charging. After the charge (148 v) Fans and lights switched of normaly so i tok the bike from the grid. About 7 hours later i decided to take the car for the way home (because of the weather) so i tok the Vectrix from its "loading-point" at work to its "resting-point" iturned it on and the cooling fans startet to run with (and that is unusual for my bike) the sidestand still down. So back to charging to see voltage and temperature -> 38°C and only 138 v both unusual to further chargings.
So i let the bike cool down outside bevor i put it back, voltage droped to 137 v.
Maybe similar problem as described in ?
I keep you informed.
P.s. sorry for misspelling and absence of grammatics ;-)
Mikemitbike
Yeah, I think your battery will have to be replaced.
I think that the problem is the same of the other cases of battery hot. It's a sensor malfunction because reads high temperatures when those are down. I think that is the same problem that this one: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5327-problem-flashing-battery-and-temp-telltale
Hi,
I had no BatHot sign, i had a Battery warning, a for the charging-circumstances very hot battery, which lost its voltage very fast - 148v down to 137v or 138v after 7 hours. Reaching 40°C after 32°C at the end off charge, both fans where working - i checked that during charging. The air wich came out 7 hours later was QUITE warm. All effects that did not exist before. I usually check the bike during its charging several times so i know its "behavior".
Greetings Mikemitbike
I think some of the cells are releasing it's energy as a heat and that's why you're loosing Voltage.
As for the battery warning telltale - the manual says, that it lights if one of the temperature sensor detects more than 15'C of average of the rest of the temperature sensors. One or more of your cells are releasing heat and those cells are 15'C warmer than the healthy cells.
Battery telltale was happening to me when the front battery wasn't cooled and it's temperature sensors detected 15'C higher temperature than the sensors of the rear battery.
Could be...
Concerning the previous message, I wasn't talking about BATHOT... The 2 red lights flashing on the panel could mean a bad sensor or different levels of battery temperatures due to bad cells. The problem seems to be common. Either way, the solution is to replace the batteries.
On the workbench the Vectux cells continue to heat up after charging for an hour or more.
I am not sure if this is exclusively due to heat transfer from the core of the cell to the surface (where I measure with an IR probe), or if the gasses created during over-charging continue to re-combine via the built-in catalysor, which is an exothermic reaction.
Increasing heat after charging can also be due to re-distribution of heat from very hot cells which are located away from a temp sensor to the rest of the pack, including the cells with a temp sensor. That would mean that the hot cells were very hot, so hot that they are most likely toast by now.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Hi,
I checked the voltage today. I charged the scooter on monday (voltage dropped 7 hours after charging down to 138 v, today thursday the voltage has dropped down to 135 v. Because i never checked the voltage hours or days after charging before -> is this a normal value?
Greetings Mikemitbike
Yes, looking only at the voltages this sounds like perfectly normal behavior. Batteries are chemical and they react with some delay. What you have measured now (135 V) is the so called resting voltage, or no-load voltage. To charge the battery, a higher voltage is needed, but it will fall back to the no-load voltage as soon as you stop charging - but after some delay. As you have seen the voltage drops quickly to a level close to the no-load voltage, then approaches it slower. It can take hours to reach a stable voltage. The same for discharge, voltage will drop under load but as soon as you stop discharging it goes back to the no-load voltage. The no-load voltage is not always the same but depends also on the state of charge, how fully charged the battery is. Now, the no-load voltage also depends on the temperature. And there is always some self-discharge. So a charge voltage of 148 V, dropping to 138 V after charging, then down to 135 V after a few days is perfectly normal. It's about the same readings I have got, as I remember it (haven't written them down). Maybe you could wish for a slightly higher end-of-charge voltage, if the pack is perfectly balanced.
After a longer ride on the bike you should see no-load voltages down to below 130 V, even below 125 V.
You should be able to find more info about battery behavior with some googling.
To add to that, i rode my bike down to the red battery light with barely and range and down to limp mode
The battery was sitting at 120 volts when it started charging.
What is your Vectrixs' charging cut-off voltage?
Mine is 147-148 for CP charging and 151 for CC charging.
Hi, the cut-off-voltage(COV) of my vectrix depends on the battery-temperature(BT). Cold temperature outside
and 17°C BT alows a higher COV up to 153v at CP and CC. When I charge the Vectrix inside, the battery gets warmer
and the COV drops down to 148 v
Greetings Mikemitbike
Wow it took months (Nov08-Apr09) to take my Bike for service and repair. After one week i recived an e-mail worke is done.
I called my dealer and now general-importer for Austria what was wrong with the battery. The answer: they plugged in the
laptop all parameters are normal, no repair or batteryreplacement necessary. Well my battery reached 40°C with both fans
working when the battery was only 50% charged (outside temp around 22°C)and they found nothing...
Great!
Got a hot battery and a hot head right now.
Greetings Mike
I have nearly 10000Km on the Vectrix now.
Have been noticing a gradual loss of capacity over the last few thousand Km.
I use the bike as a commuter, riding 20.7Km each way to and from work, 5 days a week. The trip is a mix of 70 to 100Kmh, flat and a bit of a hill at one end. Some 5 minute stips of a weekend. I charge at home and at work and have been doing the 'drain till battery light comes on' thing on a weehky basis since the software upgrade last year. Ambient temperatures are between 10 and 28 degrees C and I ride all year round, with no long layoffs with an inactive bike. Only major problems include a blown charger, blown motor controller: fixed in short order, thanks Vectrix Australia. No blown main fuses.
I have always thought that my routine and environment were just about ideal for the Vectrix.
Having said all that, the bike is losing about one extra bar of capacity compared to the same trip 12 months ago when new. The acceleration is not as strong in the midrange as before, and the first ride after a quiet weekend is touch and go as to weather I even make the 20.7Km trip without the battery light coming on.
I haven't gone down the track of measuring individual cells and will leave that sort of investigation till after the warrenty expires.
I am well aware of the projected loss of capacity for Ni-mh cells, just a little dissapointed it seems to be happening already.
Paul
I've no issue with diminished capacity - on the VX1 at least. The only time I've been aware of issues was when it was below 9c, and I lost around 30% of my usual range. Now we are back to 20c (on average) I'm back to where I was. There have been comments that Vectrix should have dumped Li-Mh as soon as they could and switch to Li-Ion. Having now checked out the prices, I can see why - the difference is cost/capacity is almost 100%, for no real improvement, so on a cost vs distance argument alone, I'm happy with my existing pack and I'm sure most other owners are too.
- Raymond
Paul:
I am a bit surprised that you have the battery light come on at 20.7km, that only 12 miles!. That sounds like way too early. Although I have only had my bike for 2000 miles, I routinely get at least 30 miles on a charge. In fact my daily commute is a pretty hilly 16 miles each way, so about 26km. At that point I have half the charge remaining when I plug her in. I do not drain it down to empty on a regular basis, however unless I have to.
I today started a ride with 26'C battery temperature after a 16/17 bars recharge and 20'C ambient temperature. After 50 kilometers done and 6 bars left, battery light lit up. I drove very gently to the nearest charging spot and plugged it in. When it started charging it lit BATHOT, temperature telltale and battery telltale. After 10 seconds BATHOT and temperature telltale went away but the battery telltale stayed on for a while. The air blowing out in the back wasn't hot.
After 30 minutes the battery cooled down to 34'C.
Interesting part of it is, that the battery fans didn't start running until I plugged in for a recharge. They should while riding, when batteries get hot, shouldn't they?
Is this normal battery behaviour? Shouldn't they run cooler? I didn't drive agressively.
This could have been caused by a temperature difference between sensors.
A cell with temp sensor on it might have been empty, charging in reverse and heating up big time. That does not heat the exhaust air much. It might not even have been hotter than 40dC, just 15dC warmer than the others. What temperature did it display when the bathot disappeared?
You started driving after 16/17th, so the 3A topup/balancing was missing, which affects the weak cells first, I guess.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
When BATHOT disappeared, 47'C and 44'C followed.
But cell reversal at 6 bars left?
Yes, so far all the symptoms fit the bill!
Malfunctioning temp sensor could also do it, but why would it then start to gradually drop the reported voltage?
If I remember correctly, you have the old software which does not do equalization charges every so often. This allows cells with slightly higher self-discharge rate to gradually drift downwards in SOC.
An empty cell at 6/17th is quite possible, I get that all the time, but because I monitor the cells I do not allow reverse charging. The weakest cells can charge in reverse without any noticeable reduction in power or any warning telltales lighting up.
The affected cell might just need a full charge, or it might already have irrecoverably reduced capacity. In any case, running the battery down to where the low SOC cells experience this reversal and heat up WILL damage them irreversibly if it is repeated too often.
Your pack needs equalization. Maybe a few shallow (2bars = 15/17th left) discharges, followed by complete recharging, could do the trick. (I just realized that I can actually test this out now, due to the M-BMS. I might have the time to test this soon!)
It might also be possible to send a command to the charger (via the Can interface and Scooter diagnostics software) telling it to perform an equalization charge. I don't know it this can be done without upgrading to the newer software versions, though.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
Ooops!
I tried it out, and something unexpected happened: After riding about 7km, down to 15/17th, then plugging in to charge, the charger continued in CP mode until 17/17th, 144V; it then switched straight into EC mode. So much for that theory....you might get less balancing that way!
I might try to ride it down to 14/17th next time.
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!
If that's the case and the battery is failing, I will get it replaced at the next check-up. I will monitor the situation further.
Done: 10.4km on 80km/h hilly roads - from full down to 14/17th - same result, no CC part of charge cycle happening. It was the ride directly following the first one to 15/17th.
Sure looks like I have been giving nonsensical advice for a while! Tomorrow I'll ride it to 13/17th, etc, until I find at what maximum charge level the CC phase gets first initiated.
It's all part of testing my auxiliary battery pack, details there: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=154997#p154997
This information may be used entirely at your own risk.
There is always a way if there is no other way!