Got my Vectrix today!

Congrats!

How about some side by side pics with the C130? And of course we'll all be waiting for the road test comparisons. :D

Welcome and enjoy your new ride. Perhaps it will set a benchmark to your other bikes. You must tell us how the bikes compare.

Excellent news!!

Now you can really compare and we look forward to your report on impressions and technical analysis.

Wow, you went over to the dark side! Was it painful? Isn't that like the President of Ford buying a GM car?

Actually, I would think that both GM and Ford probably purchase each other's vehicles for their engineers to inspect and get ideas from.
At least that is what I would expect them to be doing.

So John in all seriousness, I do respect you for actually coming to this thread, and actually taking the time to post. I do realize it would be much easier for you to just lurk. Hopefully you will gain some knowledge which will help you improve your product.

And since you are still in business and Vectrix hardly is, that says something also. And if I knew how to make a happy face here I would post it.

Congratulations. Let's hope that it lasts many years...

How much riding will you do before you start to tear it apart? Since I know the Vectrix, some specific comparisons would be great. Even as you tear into it, pics, opinions, comparisons on how it is built, etc

Such a unique opportunity for us.

Personally, I'm really not looking forward to side by side testing etc. I mean it's not exactly like you will have an unbiased tester (no offense to you personally John). But, it might be fun to see some side by side photo comparisons.

No, let John use it for what it will be great for. Something to aspire to, but with improved reliability. When John goes back and forth between his bike and the Vectrix, he'll know if his bike is really ready for prime time. Because whether he likes it or not, the Vectrix is what his bike is going to get compared to. At least initially.

Personal opinions are certainly subjective, but scientific measurements shouldn't be. It doesn't do John any good to comapre the Vectrix going up hill against his bike going down hill. If he wants to tell us his bike goes faster and further he can already do that subjectively, (and has). If he hasn't bought the Vectrix to do some comparisons, (whether for public release or not), then I'm not sure why he's wasting his time and money. Assuming he is going to do some comparisons then I'd like to see the results, and I'll certainly consider the source of the information when forming my own opinion, just like I do with anything I read or hear.

Of course, independent testing would/should take the bias out of the performance comparisons.

Personally, I'm really not looking forward to side by side testing etc. I mean it's not exactly like you will have an unbiased tester (no offense to you personally John).

Actually, most of the side by side testing results can be completely bias-free. If you ask which bike is lighter, John will simply put them both on a scale. Acceleration? John will put both on the inertial-drum dynometer and show you the graph. He's going to instrument the Vectrix like he instrumented his own bikes, so even some of the internal values, like peak power output, will be nicely graphed. I'm not worried about bias on anything that can be graphed or measured objectively.

Of course, the harder comparisons will be things like 'value for the money' and 'exciting looks' and 'comfortable ride'. Here is where bias can creep in, no matter how hard you try to avoid it.

I think it will be a bit difficult to beat the vectrix in acceleration due the motor limitation (5kw)...but...let's see...maybe i'm wrong...

Wow, you went over to the dark side!

I'd just like to head off the rumors right now. Mike Boyle is NOT my father! (bad Star Wars joke).

Yup Ford used to buy all the coolest cars when I worked there. Where I worked they used to let the engineers drive them - but then they got fed up of replacing burnt out clutches in the Nissan Skyline GTR they had (back in the day when that was one of the cars to benchmark Escort and Sierra Cosworths against - early 90's in Dunton, Essex). Oh, and it was one of my friends who was one of the worst offenders!

We do plan on doing side-by-side performance comparisons, and we'll also instrument it for independent voltage, amps and speed readings. However, it's not on the critical path right now so it may be a little while before I have results to post.

Ohh, and while you take the Vectrix into pieces you might have some great ideas on how to imnprove/maintain the Vectrix. Perhaps there is a sideline to your business in it. I am sure lots of us would love to see such things and actually buy (batteries, CAN bus interpreters....

I think it will be a bit difficult to beat the vectrix in acceleration due the motor limitation (5kw)...but...let's see...maybe i'm wrong...

You're right, but it may be a closer race than you think. The 5kW rating is a safe 'continuous' power level for the hub motor, but you can put quite a bit more power into it for short bursts. John is taking advantage of that fact by monitoring the motor temperature and cutting power as it gets too hot. That means for quick accelerations, it's going to act like it's a bigger motor. Of course, the Vectrix has a larger rated motor to start with, so it doesn't have to run at higher power and won't heat as fast. But if you can reach full speed in 20 seconds, you don't really care that the motor could have run for 40 more seconds at full power, that's essentially wasted capacity.

My guess is that the Vectrix will probably be quicker to accelerate, but not by a huge margin.

Actually, has anyone checked to see how close the Vectrix actually comes to its published acceleration rates? And any quess what size rider it was tested with?

Actually, has anyone checked to see how close the Vectrix actually comes to its published acceleration rates? And any quess what size rider it was tested with?

Good question.

Personally, I'm really not looking forward to side by side testing etc. I mean it's not exactly like you will have an unbiased tester (no offense to you personally John).

Actually, most of the side by side testing results can be completely bias-free. If you ask which bike is lighter, John will simply put them both on a scale. Acceleration? John will put both on the inertial-drum dynometer and show you the graph. He's going to instrument the Vectrix like he instrumented his own bikes, so even some of the internal values, like peak power output, will be nicely graphed. I'm not worried about bias on anything that can be graphed or measured objectively.

Of course, the harder comparisons will be things like 'value for the money' and 'exciting looks' and 'comfortable ride'. Here is where bias can creep in, no matter how hard you try to avoid it.

If someone wants to buy me a Vectrix and a C130 I promise to do my best to produce unbiased comparisons with as much instrumentation as I can muster. ;-)

You're absolutely right - I'm biased (modesty forbids me from telling you quite how many dollars and cents I'm biased by!). But, the comparisons posted as others note will be from instrumentation. One clarification though - we won't be using the inertia dyno for comparisons as it will favor the VX-1 (and, as NJSteve points out, we're not very likely to want to do that! ;-) ). This is because the inertia dyno consists of a 600lb drum which we spin up to speed - it matches our bike + rider quite well but it would be like having a 85lb rider on the VX.

What you are openly confessing to here is called "Publication Bias". It is one of the more insidious forms of bias, and often deliberate. The pharmaceutical industry has it down to a fine art to stop scientific trials (of course done with very scientific instrumentation!) or not to report them when the results are not in favor of their marketed product.
The tobacco and alcohol industry are good at it, too!
And politicians...

...
...
In terms of VX-1 performance comparison to published figures - no one has come forth with an independent 0-50mph test. I did an on-road test of a kind owner's last fall (thanks MaryT!) - results posted here: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5624-performance-comparisons-vespa-250-vectrix-xm3500-amp-xm4500 It wasn't a very satisfactory test (I was mindful of the fact that it was not my bike and that batteries are expensive!!)

Here we go again: The 0-100km/h is in my opinion much more important, because it tells you if your vehicle will be able to accelerate onto a highway or pass another slightly slower vehicle without a 2km run-up. The 0-80km/h test is not so important. But of course, publication bias comes in handy because the Vectrix is really hard to beat between 70-100km/h. It's lame off the line, I give you that!
.
.
Regarding the lack of independent test results you lament: What do you call these???

A video like this one is a lot harder to fake than a graphic. The green dots in the graph above have been determined by using a stopwatch whilst watching the video. You can easily check it for yourself.

I have not seen the need to verify the accuracy of the speedo, because I can tell that it very similar to what the average car speedo tells you. So it might be 5-10% over-reporting, but I don't think it is.

I will not bore you with the canbus data which show the acceleration by the millisecond...

Who produced that graph Mik?

Edit: Nevermind, I found it. It's a graph that John did and you added to, right? So why the question about independence?

John, as a manufacturer on these forums, you are unique. Not too many others (none?) have stepped up and been as open to this crowd as you have.

But you know that no matter what you do there will be critics. It really does not mater how brutally honest you are, someone will step up to cast doubt.

But I am sure you know all that, and will try to be as unbiased as possible. Maybe you should have some independent reviews of, for instance, acceleration. I know many think the Vectrix is a bit sluggish off the line. A persons opinion is sometimes more believable than hard data. A person with a nice padded rear may report the ride comfort differently than someone who is less endowed.

In any case, have fun...

You're absolutely right - I'm biased (modesty forbids me from telling you quite how many dollars and cents I'm biased by!). But, the comparisons posted as others note will be from instrumentation. One clarification though - we won't be using the inertia dyno for comparisons as it will favor the VX-1 (and, as NJSteve points out, we're not very likely to want to do that! ;-) ). This is because the inertia dyno consists of a 600lb drum which we spin up to speed - it matches our bike + rider quite well but it would be like having a 85lb rider on the VX.

What you are openly confessing to here is called "Publication Bias". It is one of the more insidious forms of bias, and often deliberate. The pharmaceutical industry has it down to a fine art to stop scientific trials (of course done with very scientific instrumentation!) or not to report them when the results are not in favor of their marketed product.
The tobacco and alcohol industry are good at it, too!
And politicians...

Actually I'm "confessing" to no such thing! I'm indicating why an inertia dyno is fine as a way of comparing horsepower - but not for comparing acceleration. The parenthetical comment was a mode of expression that you may find useful to filter for from time to time - it's called humor (as indicated by a little smiley face).

...
...
In terms of VX-1 performance comparison to published figures - no one has come forth with an independent 0-50mph test. I did an on-road test of a kind owner's last fall (thanks MaryT!) - results posted here: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/5624-performance-comparisons-vespa-250-vectrix-xm3500-amp-xm4500 It wasn't a very satisfactory test (I was mindful of the fact that it was not my bike and that batteries are expensive!!)

Here we go again: The 0-100km/h is in my opinion much more important, because it tells you if your vehicle will be able to accelerate onto a highway or pass another slightly slower vehicle without a 2km run-up. The 0-80km/h test is not so important. But of course, publication bias comes in handy because the Vectrix is really hard to beat between 70-100km/h. It's lame off the line, I give you that!
.
.
Regarding the lack of independent test results you lament: What do you call these???

A video like this one is a lot harder to fake than a graphic. The green dots in the graph above have been determined by using a stopwatch whilst watching the video. You can easily check it for yourself.

I have not seen the need to verify the accuracy of the speedo, because I can tell that it very similar to what the average car speedo tells you. So it might be 5-10% over-reporting, but I don't think it is.

I will not bore you with the canbus data which show the acceleration by the millisecond...

Sigh....

We did 0-80 km/h not because of "publication bias" but because we didn't capture a clean 0-100 km/h test when using someone else's bike, on downtown public roads. Yes, yes, you can say it's all sinister manipulation if you like. However, note that now that we own a VX-1 we're going to redo the test - and we'll be able to follow a much better testing procedure.

Your test of a video of a speedo is trivially easy to fake (just like my graph). The easiest idea that springs to mind is accelerate down a steep hill! So, not really sure you thought through that particular comment very carefully.

As noted by another VX owner on another thread - the best test will be side-by-side on the same course with the same rider (I don't think it has to be ridden at the exact same time - but within minutes of each other should suffice). That's what we will do. Yes, we could fake the data. But we won't. A number of reasons (1) we're doing this for our own purposes - we don't believe the VX marketing hype and we want to know the "truth"; (2) we're trustworthy guys trying to share interesting info with readers of this board; (3) it would ruin our reputation when we inevitably got "found out". You can choose to believe or to disbelieve any of those reasons.

I could reasonably claim that as an owner you're biased as well (folks usually like to find reasons why their expensive purchases were well founded). I'm not claiming that - just highlighting the fact that ANY and ALL sources of data need to be treated with caution as to intentional or unintentional bias.

Bottom line the data we present on these forums is for the forum readers viewing pleasure only. It is left to the brain behind the eyeballs to decide whether they wish to believe or disbelieve the data presented.

Now, I'm off to find a steep hill so that I can produce a video of a 0-100 km/h time that matches the Vectrix marketing claims. Why stop there? If we ride off a cliff and use GPS we could get a wicked 0-120mph time! (Right back at ya! "confessing" indeed!) ;-)

JDH, this is a fantastic pitch for a new marketing campaign. Take a video when testing "acceleration" down the cliff. Put it on youtube and claim you got the fastest accelerating e-ride on the market. I am sure it will become a great marketing success. Perhaps you could top it with a Vectrix following it down the cliff and then claim the Vectrix is just not accelerating quickly enough. Maybe a commenter such a John Cleese (i.e. Fawlty Towers) would be perfect to explain the scenario. hahaha Hilarious! By the way, this is meant to be a joke and not to be offensive (my appologies in advance in case somebody feels being personally attacked.

Norman

We did 0-80 km/h not because of "publication bias" but because we didn't capture a clean 0-100 km/h test when using someone else's bike, on downtown public roads. Yes, yes, you can say it's all sinister manipulation if you like. However, note that now that we own a VX-1 we're going to redo the test - and we'll be able to follow a much better testing procedure.

The publication bias refers to the selection of tests that are more likely to provide the desired result. And omitting others, like the dyno test you mentioned.

Your test of a video of a speedo is trivially easy to fake (just like my graph). The easiest idea that springs to mind is accelerate down a steep hill! So, not really sure you thought through that particular comment very carefully.

That is true, I did not think of this. I just picked the flattest piece of road on a near windless day and tried it in both directions. But it's true, it could be a fake!
But then, I'm not in the habit of glossing stuff over. And if you actually look at the graph or use a stopwatch, you will realize that it shows that the acceleration is a lot slower than the Vectrix marketing hype promises!
I do say it if I think the Vectrix sucks in some respects, and it surely does. But I also say it clearly when I think that it excels in some areas. But you use the comparison for your advertising purposes, because the Vectrix crowd is of course your future customer base. So if you want to continue to get away with posting ads for your bikes in the Vectrix section, then get used to some very thorough, well informed and polite criticism! Cause you shall get it! You know that by now, of course....

...
...

I could reasonably claim that as an owner you're biased as well (folks usually like to find reasons why their expensive purchases were well founded). I'm not claiming that - just highlighting the fact that ANY and ALL sources of data need to be treated with caution as to intentional or unintentional bias.

Of course, and you should, and you are right about it! We all have to make conscious efforts to eliminate the bias where we can. I try to report the good, the bad and the ugly about the Vectrix, not just the part of the picture that suits my purposes.

Bottom line the data we present on these forums is for the forum readers viewing pleasure only. It is left to the brain behind the eyeballs to decide whether they wish to believe or disbelieve the data presented.

The readers pleasure, heh? You are basically writing in Vectrix threads, or include "Vectrix" in you posts, at a time when about 2000-3000 Vectrix owners are getting stranded without warranty support. They paid three times the amount you paid for the Vectrix you just bought. And you constantly harp on about how your product under development is so much better than the Vectrix!

What do you expect???

Now, I'm off to find a steep hill so that I can produce a video of a 0-100 km/h time that matches the Vectrix marketing claims. Why stop there? If we ride off a cliff and use GPS we could get a wicked 0-120mph time! (Right back at ya! "confessing" indeed!) ;-)

Go for it, the friendly sparring shall continue! ;-)

We need EV's that meet the users needs, not ads that feed their wants and then disappoint later on.

This is not directed at you, JDH, because any manufacturer / advertiser would get a similar response!

You are just the only one who takes up the challenge to write in a "Peer reviewed forum", so to say!

Well done, it's not easy....

So if you want to continue to get away with posting ads for your bikes in the Vectrix section, then get used to some very thorough, well informed and polite criticism! Cause you shall get it! You know that by now, of course.... and some less than polite and informed as well!!!!

The readers pleasure, heh? You are basically writing in Vectrix threads, or include "Vectrix" in you posts, at a time when about 2000-3000 Vectrix owners are getting stranded without warranty support. They paid three times the amount you paid for the Vectrix you just bought. And you constantly harp on about how your product under development is so much better than the Vectrix!

What do you expect???

Mik, I guess it really doesn't matter what the qualities or validity of tests and comparisons John may claim between his product and Vectrix. Once he brings his product to market, it will receive a plethora of qualified and unqualified review. This is a consequence of a free press for every manufacturer. Overly optimistic performance is a time honoured practise of automotive spin-doctors.(the one I love is the claim "Highway performance, 180 mph, leave the rest behind!" No one can dispute this claim without attracting the attention of law enforcement, or at least the argument, which highway?!!)

Why is John's use of the Vectrix thread is invalid. After all, the demise of Vectrix is not down to John, and since most Vectrix riders purchased their bikes fairly idealistically, I believe most would be grateful to see a successor, one that is, not just vapour ware !

Sorry about the above, I would appear to have got by quotes tangled! This is the consequence of small lap tops, little light and old brain!

After all, the demise of Vectrix is not down to John ...

Marco, I think it has been firmly established that the demise of Vectrix is your fault. Are you finally admitting the truth? :D

Actually it looks like both Mik and John have tested the Vectrix and answered my question already, the posts which I hadn't seen before.

The aceleration rates quoted from Vectrix that I have seen are:
0-30 mph in 3.1 Seconds
0-50 mph in 6.8 Seconds
0-60 mph in 8.2 Second

Surprisingly both Mik and John got almost identical rates of:
0-30 mph in 5 Seconds
0-50 mph in 9.5 Seconds
0-60 mph in ~16 Seconds judging from the Mik's graph

Now I don't doubt that Vectrix got these numbers, but it was obviously under ideal conditions and probably with a light 100 lb rider or so.
The real world numbers are 40% or so worse than the factory times, so much so that it makes you wonder if the factory times are even really even repeatable in a real test scenario.
John, as far as I could see you didn't mention the weight of your rider during your tests.
Mik, you are close to my weight, but I would say that we are both far off from what a manufacturer would do a published acceleration test with.
Evidently, Mik has previously asked for other people to do testing without any takers. Maybe a light rider could just post a video of the speedometer and let Mik or someone do the actual calculations.

Anyway, the acceleration rate is only a small part of the one's actual considerations with these bikes in the first place. Because of the battery drain issues it seems most riders rarely go around flooring a Vectrix anyway. Acceleration or lack of it didn't sink Vectrix and it didn't save it either. The same will go for John's products. The fact that few people have actually clocked their acceleration also shows how little the actual numbers matter. Range and other issues seem to be much more important to the success of these vehicles than acceleration rates.

That's part of the reason I wrote that I really wasn't looking for side by side test numbers, etc. As far as the testing bias I mentioned, that's because it really is impossible for anyone to impartially rate their own product against another similar one. And after all as for comparisons, you really are comparing a different class of products because I believe the Vectrix was always priced significantly higher than John's product. So I think it is wrong to expect his bikes to match a Vectrix on acceleration performance. I mean if John's product can come anywhere close, for less money he might have a successful product.

However, what I would like to see from John is his impression of the Vectrix after using it for a while. But if you think about it even that could be suspect at this point. That's because if you think about it, it would really not be in John's best interest to say anything but good things about the Vectrix because it is no longer made. I mean if he were to say Vectrix was not very good etc, people might say look the best one out there was not so good, so this technology really isn't ready for prime time yet. Whereas, if he says great things about it, people might go for his bike because Vectrix has no support anymore. So honestly, I'm not expecting much more than an honest owner's report that anyone on this blog might give.

But I do want to extend my Kudos again to John that he actually publicly admitted that he bought one. That took guts, but I think it was a very smart thing to do considering the current Vectrix prices.

John,

congrats on your purchase.
I hope it'll bring you good times, and us more knowledge.

Go and test it, compare it if you will, but don't expect the V to beat any ICE-records.
That is not the point, as I discovered as I got a bit familiar with mine:

The V is quick but not the quickest, I think it's nice looking (for a maxi scooter), but let's face it: it's quite impractical!
It still has low mileage and limited top.

What is the point then?

Remember Vectrix's slogan? "Good, Clean, Fun".

For me, I think it's the 'low impact' fun: I can ride my V for fun, and not having to feel bad about anything.
And I still smile when I whizz by gas-stations :-)
The smoothness and silence of driving an electric vehicle? It was in my dreams already, many... many... many years ago, and my dream came true.

Now, after 1800km in four months or so I've come to this feeling:
I sure hope it lasts a long time, because a) it was expensive (and it's not invulnerable) b) I love it almost like it was a person, losing it would leave a big hole in my life.
Anyone who drives his/her V like I do, (50% fun / 50% commute / 0% highway) must love it. Because that was what the V is made for.
I will never, ever own another ICE on two wheels again in my life, that, I swear.

Go! Drive!