Not sure how many Zapino's are still out there these days but I picked one of these bad boys up last week. It had dead batt's since it's been sitting in someone's garage for almost 5 years. But with only 5.8 miles it was practically new. Anyways, swapped out the batteries right away with UB12350 (Universal 12V 35A local batt shop) and started riding it around for 5-6 days now so I can get used to it and get a good solid baseline of it's performance. By trade, I'm a Network Engineer but got my degree in Electronics Engineering many years ago. Anyways, on to the good stuff. So far, pros and cons are as follows. Pros: Decent acceleration, decent longevity, decent looks, mechanical components good. Cons: Doesn't pull up hills, takes too long to charge, not quite fast enough for LA riding in eco mode, shady wiring and electronics, 60V vs. 72V system, bike's electrical system not grounded right, slight motor vibration when batteries are nearing 60-70%. So here is what I have done so far:
Current mods:
- Installed push button switch in floor for speed switch on the fly with your heel
- Rewired parking lights for US laws
- Repaired turn signals and lowered volume on beeper
- Chassis mounted the 60V charger for "anywhere there's a 100V outlet" charging
- Put brake quiet goop on rear squeaky brakes
- added 6th 12V 35A battery to system for 72V testing (good results, see below)
Future mods:
- Wire (-) negative of motor directly to battery negative (if not already, looks like it goes into the controller first)
- Replace all battery cables with 6 gauge cables
- Use right red horn switch and add a "Turbo Circuit" for extra power off the line and climbing hills (relay and switch to give the motor direct power from batteries bypassing the controller)
- Permanently add 6th battery in series (need to build another metal battery box in front of footwell battery and relocate DC-DC converter)
- Xenon or HID headlight
- LED bulbs for all existing 12V lights
- Upgraded mirrors (stock ones suck)
- Open up stock 60V charger and make sure all coils and circuits are tied down well for "on board" use
- Open up stock controller and verify Mosfets and Caps voltages (my guess is they're rated above 60V since 72V is working fine)
72V mod:
With a 3000W brushless motor, efficiency should still be within range using a 72V system (might have to upgrade the controller eventually). In testing, the controller didn't seem to complain about 72V whatsoever. No excessive heat, no burning smell, no noise. I did get a mild vibration from the motor in ECO mode at full throttle. Motor did heat up but not much more than in 60V mode and several full throttle passes.
Stats in 72V vs. 60V:
- 60V ECO speed: 27-28MPH max, 72V ECO speed: 33-34MPH max
- 60V HIGH speed: 45-46MPH max, 72V HIGH speed: 51-52 MPH max
- DC-DC still gave 12V in either mode
- Battery level meter out of sync since it's now seeing 77-78V vs. 65-66V (probably needs a small resistor)
Anyways, what have you guys done? Anything good? Lifepo4 mods? 5000W motors?
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Just out of curiosity: is the current motor in that scooter a brushed "DC" motor? As you mention attaching the negative motor terminal directly to the battery and even installing a "superboostswitch" and relay to directly power the motor from battery + and -? All that would not work with a three-phase synchronous PM-motor...
As for grounding in electric scooters. I seem to remember that your battery minus seems to be grounded, which is a very dangerous thing of course and should rectified. But I would not ground anything, not even the 12V circuit.
My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
It's a brushless 3000W motor. Going to have a closer look at it this weekend to see how I can get the most power out of it for short bursts such as hill climbing, etc. I think I have a grounding fault somewhere. When I measure voltage from any wire behind the DC-DC converter to the chassis, I get 60V. This usually means something is not grounded or a terminal is touch ground somewhere. Hard to tell just yet.
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
Woa!!! Then don't even THINK of directly connecting one of the three motor phases to the battery, as it will have unforseeable consequences, probably fry parts of your controller and make your motor useless as it NEEDS the controller to feed it the correct polarity and voltage into each of the three phases EVERY FEW DEGREES OF ROTATION. It will no longer rotate with one of the phases directly connected to a battery pole and will short the battery through one of the Controller MOSFETs.
You will need a more powerful controller that has more oomph at low RPM to improve takeoff and hill climbing performance.
My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
I see. Ok, you've got a point, thanks for the input. Wonder what the rating of the current (stock) controller is? 60V 1500W? I'd like to upgrade to a 72V system (add a 6th battery permanently) to get a bit extra top speed and pull. I am finding some affordable 72V 1500W controllers on eBay. Wonder if that'll do. But like I mentioned, already tested 72V in the current system and it did not seem to mind the extra 12V. You think the stock system (controller and motor) will wear faster over time with extra heat at 72V? Maybe I need a 72V 5000W controller!? (Still learning)
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
Extra heat could decrease the lifetime of MOSFETs and the likes dramatically, but the question is: Is extra really generated by 12V more? You might want to watch that carefully during your next test rides. Your initial findings seem to indicate not much thermal trouble, and the increased voltage was so far survived by everything.
However yes, for better takeoff performance a higher power controller will most likely be necessary. And remeber that cotgnroller folks will usually be talking about electrical power, whereas your motor is rated for mechanical power. Divide the mechanical power you want form your motor by about 0.7 (~maximum system efficiency...), and you will get the controller power rating you need. And yes, the new controller should be rated for 72V.
My rides:
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
Message deleted; posted twice.
Randy W
Santa Rosa, CA
2 ZAP! Zapinos
Hi Guys,
Great discussion. Love this sort of research. "Smoke-test", as it were...
I believe, as MEroller points-out, that the motor is three? phase, and needs that specific controller. Not sure if there are any 72-volt controllers on the market that output anything other than variable DC voltage, or will accept the Hall-effect sensors inputs.
It may be prudent to open the controller, while it still operable, and check capacitor voltage ratings. It seems that 63-volts is a common Chinese breakpoint, so we may be over the line, there. Also would be prudent to note the numbers on the MOSFETS and try to track-down the ratings. Let's see if there is a need or a way to upgrade. Please keep reporting back.
SAFETY ISSUE?
As I ride down a long hill at 45 - 48 MPH on my way to work, I am reminded of a poster on another thread who said her rear wheel locked-up tight. She was not riding, at the time. This could be fatal. Anybody know if there are epoxy-d magnets or other stuff that can come loose and cause one to experience a violent skid?
My red one just turned over 3000 km. No problems, except an adjustment on the horn, adjustments on the brake light switches, and the original ignition switch replacement. Love these things!
Cheers,
Randy W
Randy W
Santa Rosa, CA
2 ZAP! Zapinos
I have a zapino with dead batteries sitting in my garage. I was wondering what adding a 6th SLA battery would do. good to hear it helps. :) I was also considering getting a 4500W, 72V motor and controller from kelly controllers. Maybe...
Thanks Randy and MEroller. Good input. I will definitely pull that controller out and have a look at what's in there and what can be upgraded. I wonder if a simple additional controller can be integrated in for max amps at full throttle using a few relays and a switch (mostly for short bursts to get up hills, etc)? I live in LA and there is nothing but hills all around. Seems like these 3000W motors are capable of so much more and the controller is limiting them for safety and reliability reasons. Most electric motor controllers have some "brains" built in to limit power even in RC cars and smaller EVs. But as mentioned, initial 72V testing did show that the controller can handle 72V for a lengthy time with no issues. The other worries I have with 72V are battery level sensor errors (always Green in 72V mode), regen system not working properly (since it's set for 60V, or is it dynamic?). I suppose I can connect the battery sensor 1 battery in series back so it sees 60V instead of 72V or find the correct ohm resistor to apply to the battery level circuit. Wow, Randy! That's scary! Definitely makes me want to never ride downhill. Overall I think the Zapino is a great vehicle. I constantly read posts online from other electric scooter owners that are adding extra batteries and making controller mods just to go faster than 20-25MPH! And the Zapino, stock, is already beyond that! But of course, being a performance car enthusiast (EVO's and other turbo cars), I want to go faster!
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
You could do a shunt resistor mod to increase the power output of your present controller
If you open it up and post a picture I can point out where it is.
Basically the controller measures the current via a shunt resistor - if you lower the resistance, the amount of current the controller thinks is going through goes down so it increases the actual amount of current going to the motor.
a 72v 1500W controller will have a lower current rating than a 60v 1500w controller
I would suggest a 5000W 72V controller, for decent power
Make sure the motor mounts are strong enough (does it have a torque arm mainly?)
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Don't try to put controllers in parrallel (the switching won't be synchronised, which means you will end up with a short between the two controllers - they will both die)
If you want more power than a shunt resistor tricked controller can do, just get a bigger controller (I'd suggest a kelly 300A 72v brushless, just so the continuous power rating is high enough for at speed)
the zapino didn't come with regen, but a kelly controller can do it
If you want a real battery guage, get a cycle analyst - a volt meter doesn't tell you a whole lot
Matt
Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
Matt, thanks. I read about some of the X-Treme people doing that to their controllers. One guy said he used a piece of coat hanger to get less resistance. What have you used? I'm going to probably pull the controller apart tonight or tomorrow and I'll post some pics. Going to check the V ratings of the mosfets and caps as well while I'm in there. It's a hub motor, no chain no pedals. Seems to be mounted onto the rim with a gazillion torx bolts. Should be ok I think. Cheers!
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
Controller controller! So I tried. I pulled out the controller, removed all the screws, banged and pried but the thing would NOT come apart. Looks like Zap didn't want you to get in there. So, I put it back for now. On a similar note, I started prepping for the 6th battery in front of the footwell battery. Widened the frame rails and built a few galvanized steel brackets. Battery fits great. Have to cut out the lower plastic dust/water shield and the footwell Dc-DC box for it to fit. I also relocated the DC-DC converter to just under the seat box so you can remove the little cover and get to the fuses easily. Then I stopped... Started thinking to myself, "what if I blow the controller or motor?", "how will this affect overall reliability?", "what if I breakdown 10 miles away?" Lol. Need some serious advice here on whether to proceed with the permo-72V mod or to just stick with 60V? As I've stated, initial testing proved the system can handle 72V with no major issues (only tested riding for a few miles). What to do.
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
Well, that's why I was applauding you for having nerves (or other body parts) of steel. If you blew either a motor or controller, (neither being readily available, as far as I know) the thing would be pretty much junk. You need to somehow find out what's in the box to see how close to disaster you're getting.
As I've mentioned, we got a bunch of the plastic body parts from ZAP! and have visited the junkyard that got the remains of the cannibalized scooters. I'll see if they have a controller that I can rip apart (and not be too upset if I break something) and do some research.
Will let you know.
Randy W
Santa Rosa, CA
2 ZAP! Zapinos
72V update (9/16):
Well, after a few beers, I said what the hay. Besides, I bought this bike to test, tune, and learn. I am nearly done with the 72V transformation. Just fabricated and painted the brackets for the 6th battery that I am mounting under the footwell. I'll post pics of the final product tomorrow. I bought a 72V string charger on eBay which came in today. Swapped out the DC output plug to fit the Zapino, wired up the 72V chain in the bike temporarily, and plugged it in. Batteries were almost full so it ran for about 10 minutes then shut off and turned green, yay! Voltages of the individual 12V cells were nearing 15V while charging (is that normal?). The 72V charger puts out 85-87V, is <-- that normal? After a full string charge notification, I was getting 81-82V across all batteries (around 13.3-13.5V each). I then proceeded to turn on the bike and rev it up in high speed mode with it off the ground and something interesting happened which surprised me. With it fully charged, at full throttle, I seem to have hit a rev limiter of sorts that I guess the controller has built in. If you ever hit a rev limiter in a gas engine (at 6000+ RPMs), that's kinda how it sounded. After the batteries started to discharge a tad, it went away (and I'm sure under load it will not exist either). This tells me that the controller has this safety rev limiter built in and it's OK to run the higher voltage (please correct me if I am wrong)!? Gonna get some ZZZzzz's but tomorrow after work, I'll finish it all up and take it for a nice long spin (continuously around the block, haha) to verify stability. So far so good.
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
72V update 9/17 (See pics below):
Done! 72V system in place with no hiccups so far. Only issue I get is a small motor vibration in low speed mode at full throttle, high speed mode is flawless. I definitely feel more pick up and the bike seems to get up to 35-40 MPH in no time. Ran almost 15 miles today around town (85 degrees F weather), up and down hills with no major issues. Fully charged, I get around 81-82V. After running 14-15 miles, voltage came in at 73V and the bike still have a lot of oomph. I may build some air ducts to direct more air at the motor for better cooling.
New voltage: 81-82V charged
New top speed in low speed mode: 32MPH
New top speed in high speed mode: 54MPH
Controller heat: cool-warm (seems to be happy)
Motor heat: warm-hot (seems a bit warmer then with 60V)
I mounted the additional 6th battery in front of the most front battery at the footwell using Simpson brackers from Home Depot. Had to widen the frame rails a bit for the battery to slide in. It hangs about 1" lower than the other battery but still has plenty of ground clearance. I also integrated my new 72V charger into the chassis and wired the plug in the seat box to allow 110V. I want to be able to charge on the fly wherever there's a power outlet.
New battery fitment (I used a floor jack to set the height and bent the brackets to fit the battery):
Had to cut out the bottom dust shield so the battery can slip past it:
The box the held the DC-DC converter was cut out and the converter was relocated:
Battery was put in place for final fit test and brackers adjusted for mounting into frame rail:
DC-DC box relocated here for access to fuses:
Battery put in place and brackets adjusted:
Battery terminals connected and voltage levels tested:
Plastic panel reinstallation commencing:
Charger mounted under rear fender using Simpson bracket from Home Depot (Cooling and fans not constricted, plenty of air flow):
L, N, and E connected from factory charging port to 100V input on 72V charger:
Charger 72V output connected to original bike input:
Bike charging directly from 110V wall outlet:
Done, rode up to my fave viewpoint in Santa Monica Mountains!
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
Great job. thanks for all the pics. BTW, when you say you widened the frame rails a bit, how'd you do that?
Used this awesome tool, a hammer. :) Only needed about 1/4" on each side.
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
Great job, Ookba... I am totally impressed that you just jumped-in and did it. "Modifying" the frame must have been fun.
Let's see...
45 MPH divided by 60 volts = .75 So it's .75 MPH per volt.
Your mod:
72 volts X .75 = 54 MPH Right on!
Wanna try one more battery?
Ignoring wind-resistance for a moment...
84 volts X .75 = 63 MPH! Or -zero- if something goes "poof"! I'd prolly leave well-enough alone.
One additional thought, remember that the hub motor windings are on the INSIDE, connected to a structure attached to the axle, and are not thermally connected to the OUTSIDE of the motor. You've got an air gap and a lagging thermal mass of magnet before you can detect the motor temp just by feeling the hub. Things could be a lot hotter inside than you think.
If these were designed correctly, there would be a thermal cut-out to prevent overheating. Anybody know?
I think I read somewhere that the ZEV scooters' hubs are oil-filled to transmit the heat to the outer case. Anyway, congratulations on your ZAPerserverence!
Randy W
Santa Rosa, CA
2 ZAP! Zapinos
Randy, thanks. I think you're joking!? :) Not sure if the motor or controller will handle any more. Like I mentioned, I hit some sort of rev-limiter with voltage above 82V. Gets to max RPMs then backs off for a quick second then spins back up again. Like a internal combustion car's rev limiter. This may be a safety feature of either the controller or the motor.
I think I did read something about the motor having a thermal cut-off, I guess I'll find out. But again, I'm only adding 12V to a 60V system so it's not like I'm doubling the voltage. I had a thought about the low/high speed switch. Is there a way to tweak those values? Maybe with a resistor or pot? I want the low speed to be a bit faster. Maybe I'll try a resistor in parallel with the switch to divide the resistance in the controller possibly telling it to push a few more volts. I'll report back.
Edit:
So went on my longest ride yet since the 72V upgrade. Rode an average of 35MPH (up to 50MPH) for a range of almost 20mi. The last 5mi, I can feel the batteries getting tired but the bike still did a solid 25MPH with no issues. Most of this was in stop and go traffic with a lot of stops at red lights. If I had to, I think I could have gotten another 3-5mi going 20-25MPH out of it. Got home to feel a nice cool to the touch controller, cool-warm motor, and warm batteries. So far so good. This bike was meant for 72V! In riding tonight, here is my distance report:
First 0-10(16km) miles: Strong acceleration, hold 40-50+mph easy
Next 11-15(24km) miles: Good acceleration, hold 35-45mph
Next 16-20(32km) miles: Medium acceleration, hold 25mph, bike getting tired
Last 21+(34km+) miles: Better get to a power outlet quick
Anyways, Time to charge myself and my Zap.
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
72v update 9/26:
Still running string. No excessive heat, no controller issues. Since 72V, put around 60 miles on without problems. Recharge after every run with my integrated 72V charger. Eventually going to get a Cycle Analyst or a Watts up to see what it's really doing but for now enjoying the additional acceleration, speed and smoothness. Anyone else want to do the mod?
LED upgrade:
Install a H4 120SMD LED headlight bulb. It's white and bright! Also insalled LED bulbs for all lights that stay on. Haven't done turn signal bulbs yet as I don't think they drain much when in use. pics below.
Inside the headlight:
Tail/brake light:
Head light on:
On a dark street:
High beam:
Charging directly from any 110V, love it:
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
72v update 10/4:
Still going strong. Controller doesn't heat up much, even after batteries nearly drained. Motor and batteries get pretty warm when almost drained but still within acceptable ranges. Still get 81V fully charged and around 58v when the bike gets tired (after 20 miles or so running in high-speed mode). Found a local vendor with 40A 3.3V LiFEP04 cells in stock for a decent price. Might go check them out. 72V LiFEPO4 Zapino!? Possibly!
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
I read just today all the posts regading this mod, for me are very interesting 'cause in the future probably I would like to overvolt the controller.
I start using a sort of zapino last month, it was a donor. So I decide to move my LiFePO4 pack (21cells winston 40AH) from my old scooter to this.
If you are aiming to upgrade to Lithium your scooter, maybe some photo could give you an idea.
The scooter here in Italy is a 2500W 6 phases and the controller is a 3000W. Do you have some pictures of your controller?
Find below some picture
Upgrading to lifepo4 - 21 cells
The controller - mine is a 3000W controller - Mosfet are TP152N -> 75A x 85V x 24 mosfet (6 phases)
The scooter completed
More details are here on my blog, unfortunately is in Italian
http://eco-mobilita.blogspot.it/search/label/sostituzione%20scoooter
Some additional info regarding my "Zapino":
The voltage while runnig is around 64V-65V and keeps 61V-62V near the end of his capacity (80% DOD)
The speed on GPS with 21 cells is 70Kmh -> 43Mph
The controller give 60A/70A when taking off, at max speed is around 32A
The range at max speed is around 80Km -> 50miles
The name of the scooter is that
Elettra scooter 2500W
Your setup looks awesome! I've been toying around with some LifePO4 cells as well. Bought some used ones (20 3.2V 30A) locally but unfortunately looks like 1/2 are bad. Where did you get your cells? Are you using one charger to charge the series? I want to find some affordable 3.2V 40A Chinese (or similar) cells with or without BMS and without breaking the bank. Elite Power and Thundersky set ups are way too expensive ($2000+). I think you can overvolt your Zapino(like) bike without a problem. Especially since your mosfets and caps can handle the additional voltage. Usually motors can as well. I've been running on 72V (81V charged) 6 SLA batteries for around 400 miles now without a hiccup. My max speed as noted in a previous post is around 54MPH and overall acceleration is much smoother in high speed mode. I rarely switch to low speed mode anymore unless the batteries are close to being exhausted. What are you using for monitoring current and voltage? Cycle Analyst?
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
Do I understand correctly that these scooters share some parts with the X-Treme XM scooters? If so, I have an XM 3000 with a blown controller and very good batteries that could possibly also be modified this way. Not by me, though - it's up for sale, cheap...
AFAIK, the Zapino is basically an XM-3000 made by a different distributor with slightly different parts. I think the motor and controller are 3 phase in a XM-3000 but 6 phase in a Zapino. Other minor differences I think as well. Who's selling it?
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
Thank you
I bought from ev-power.eu, It's located in Europe and have a good support and fast shipping
Yes, my LiFe charger failed some monthes ago, at the momento I'm using the GreenSaver Lead Charged which is the original charger for this scooter. It's target voltage is 74,5V which is suitable for me, I ordered a new charger , but it will take time to arrive :-(
In the meanwhile I check the voltage of each battery ,I made a sort of inspection to access them.
I think too, now I'am wating to see if all the revision I made until now work well, later on I will try to add maybe 2 or 3 cells using the space as you did.
I'm using my DIY "project", I programmed an Arduino to check
- Amperage
- Voltage
- Speed
- Range
- Kwh
- External temp
- Battery temp
You can see posts and video of the previuos scooter which explain how has been made here
This is in English (I'm Italian so please do not laugh)
http://eco-mobilita.blogspot.it/2013/03/diy-open-source-wattmeter-and-more.html
And these are other post which give further explanation
http://eco-mobilita.blogspot.it/search/label/Arduino%20Arduscooter%201.0
Good work! Great project. Looks like your cells are Winston? 40A? Prices are ok, I wonder if they ship to US and how much.
HPC Revolution - Insane mode
Vectrix VX-2 #2 - Work in progress
72V 54MPH 2008 Zoomin' Zapino - Sold
48V 40MPH 2011 Vectrix VX-2 flyin' - Sold
I think in US you can buy different types fo LiFePO4 battery at better price then me..
Winston is not the best, you should evaluate what is most suitable for you in terms of cost, performance etc..
Of course pay attention on the battery box, to fit the cells there I made some change to the boxes to fit them.
Here some pictures on where Arduino has been installed :-)
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