Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

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CHL lithium battery
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Wow - I had no idea!

All Gentlemen,sorry for silence and delay in shipping to Andy [FalconEV] because too much orders for all over the world and our production capacity is limited at the beginning,new machines will come next week and we will come back to regular supply both 40AH and 50AH.
The latest always the best,now the impedance of our 50AH battery have been controlled to be 0.20-025mΩ each cell. This great increased the performance than last 2 months batteries.
Our European office and warehouse will be set up next month and all EC clients would be easily got supply within one week after order.

I thought the batteries were on their way here!

So, no hurry on the kit Matt :-\

The 42 cells battery are ready to be packed and shipped.

How many cell should we pack in bundle ? how many copper connector needed ?

Kindly inform us more details.

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I think Harry meant to ask you if you could produce these cells in the same dimensions than Vectrix' GP cells.

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

The Thundersky batteries, I believe, are less than 100Wh/Kg. I'm working a deal to get 150Wh/Kg Li-Ion batteries into the USA... Cost is about the same for the same wattage. But it would save weight. Match the weight, and in theory you'd get 30%+ more power. But these are not LiFePO4 (LFP), but straight Li-Ion (advanced Li). I'm also told that these batteries are higher quality.

It depends upon chemistry.
If you are getting Lithium Cobalt, service life will not be as long (nature of the chemistry)

usable capacity of the TS 40Ah cells is 68wh/kg, or 85wh/kg nominal
60Ah cells are 70wh/kg or 87wh/kg nominal

the original nimh battery had usable capacity of 26wh/kg or 40wh/kg rated.

Perhaps I missed something in this thread (it's super long, so I didn't read all of it) -- My concern about any Lithium conversion is that the charging profile for NiMH is different than Li batteries. I talked with Vectrix; they said the conversion would be super expensive as the the charger and controller (plus batteries) would have to be changed and it's not just a re-program.

Charge termination is different:

Nimh is charge at max power until you have replaced all Ah, the give it an extra C/10 for an hour.

LiFePO4 is charge at max power until voltage reaches 3.65v, then either:
charge at constant voltage until current falls to C/10
or charge at constant C/10 until voltage reaches 3.65v again.

its the later termination profile that is so similar to the nimh battery.
In the case of the Vectrix, thats exactly the termination profile already programmed into the nimh version of the bike.

Where they are talking about having to replace the charger, they are talking about getting the level of functionality of a VX-1Li or Li+, basically remaking the bike.

So replacing the original charger with a runke charger with the cc-cv profile, adding a BMS, and reprogrammed MC.
It's unlikely Vectrix bothered to create a new firmware revision for the old charger.
its possible, they just haven't done it.

Don't get me wrong, a VX-Li+ is better than a conversion with my kit and 50Ah cells, in every respect except price, range and self servicing.

What I want to see if the new super-ultra-capacitor technology take off! Imagine recharging in less than 10 to 20 minutes!

I can charge in 45mins, you just need a charger that can deliver 1C, or 50A for a 50Ah pack.

not hard to do on a bike ($2k for the charger) as its only ~8kw.

biggest charger I can get in Australia is 22kw, above that and the connectors start to get unusual.
22kw is 32A 415v 3-phase.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

The 42 cells battery are ready to be packed and shipped.

How many cell should we pack in bundle ? how many copper connector needed ?

the bottom layer has 2 x 15 cells and the top layer has 2 x 6 cells.

by bundle, do you mean your cells require external compression?
can they be used loose? (I use the Thundersky cells loose)

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

If you have very good BMS,you may use the cells loose,but we don't recommend that,I think 3cell in bundle is better

HarryS
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

CHL, the battery dimension used by Vectrix for the 30ah lithium battery is 95mm wide * 30mm deep * 176mm high. 42 of these fi in the battery bay. They are called GP30EVLF, they also make a 45ah version with same width and depth but 225mm high. It is called the GP45EVLF
These dimensions will fit without modifications. Most other batteries are simply to wide or too thick.

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

If you have very good BMS,you may use the cells loose,but we don't recommend that,I think 3cell in bundle is better

There may not be enough space in the bottom layer for that many sets of compression straps.

The charger applies constant 3A until voltage reaches ~152V.
The max voltage is reduced when measured cell temperature is increased.

The BMS disconnects the charger if any single cell reaches 4.1v @ 3A.

the parasitic load means all raised voltages last only a few minutes.

is there anything else the BMS needs to do to use CHL cells loose?

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

If the battery box is very tighten,then bundle would be neeedless.

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

times for some updates:

A few days ago I posted some new videos to do with using the diagnostic software and installing a cycle analyst

I already have one member report issues with using the CAN cable, so another video may be on the way showing how to do trouble shooting.

I have another video in the making for exchanging the original Vectrix charger with an Elcon/TCCharger of 1500W or 2000W

I will be updating the original videos later in the year as I am doing another 40Ah conversion
As my own bike doesn't use 40Ah cells, whenever I have to make a change I have to rely on a customer bike.

I have tested the fuel gauge against a cycle analyst:
The result, the fuel gauge has an internal limit of 32Ah (I should not have doubted those Vectrix techs......)

The result is it is really only useful for 40Ah conversions.
To make full use of a 50Ah battery, a cycle analyst and Elcon charger are needed.
This is a shame but was always a possibility.

Thats the bad news.
the good news, is the temp sensors, special bolts and blue box box are no longer necessary.
The blue box costs a bit more than the cycle analyst, and an elcon charger costs less than the second hand value of an original Vectrix charger.
So its more complicated, but not more expensive

Work on the 60Ah and 70Ah kits will start over the summer here (Winter for northern Hemisphere)
Working out how to manufacture a replacement plastic cover that gives a watertight end result is what is required.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Anderson
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit
If you have very good BMS,you may use the cells loose,but we don't recommend that,I think 3cell in bundle is better

There may not be enough space in the bottom layer for that many sets of compression straps.
Matt

Instead of using multiple compression plates maybe you could use just two per row.
One of these custom made ones as seen in the drawing below would be on one end per row and on the other end would be a stock plate.

Here's a youtube video showing how to use a strapping tool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xKmO78x7sQ

plate.png

In the drawing there are only 3 cells shown but the bottom layer would have 15 stacked together.

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

To make full use of a 50Ah battery, a cycle analyst and Elcon charger are needed.

What will happen if I don't install an Elcon charger while installing the 50AH batteries?

If I do decide to install the Elcon charger, what then would I do with the "blue box"?

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit
What are the highest temperature that you are encountering? It seems that not only the batteries but the electronic boads received cooling through the impellers.

during discharge, the highest temperature rise recorded to date was 2.5 deg C.
This was after 5 minutes of 90A continuous (a long steep hill at 80kmh).

On the same day we did the cycle analyst installation, we also discharged 20Ah very quickly using the high way and big hill that were near by.

The temps at the cell terminals started at 19.7 deg C (you can actually see this in the diagnostic video).

after the ride, the temp had risen to 29.x deg C.

So the colder the cells get, the greater the temp difference.
The upside is that more riding in winter will reduce the effect of ambient temp upon performance.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

To make full use of a 50Ah battery, a cycle analyst and Elcon charger are needed.

What will happen if I don't install an Elcon charger while installing the 50AH batteries?

If I do decide to install the Elcon charger, what then would I do with the "blue box"?

Two things will happen:
the fuel guage will read 0 when only 32Ah has been used (if you use a cycle analyst as well, thats not an issue).

If you keep the original charger, it will only put in ~36Ah max per charge, or 3Ah more than was taken out, which ever is less.

this means if you use less than 36Ah, all is well.
If you use more, than it will take more than one recharge to put all the energy back.

If you put an elcon in, the blue box is no longer necessary.

however, you can use it to control a fast charger or a dump charge pack (if you would like to explore that option).
The original nimh battery with either another powersupply (48v and however many amps you want to charge at) or another battery is a good option.

I could also buy the blue box back from you.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

(you can actually see this in the diagnostic video)

Might make some sense to post the link to your videos in your posts that reference them. I know it seems redundant to you as you are posting them at the same time, but to someone reading this site later when you mention them and there is no quick way to find the video you are referring to, it's frustrating.

-Randy

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I also own a 2018 Tesla Model 3 and a 2012 Mitsubishi iMiev

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit
To make full use of a 50Ah battery, a cycle analyst and Elcon charger are needed.

What will happen if I don't install an Elcon charger while installing the 50AH batteries?

If I do decide to install the Elcon charger, what then would I do with the "blue box"?

Two things will happen:
the fuel guage will read 0 when only 32Ah has been used (if you use a cycle analyst as well, thats not an issue).

If you keep the original charger, it will only put in ~36Ah max per charge, or 3Ah more than was taken out, which ever is less.

this means if you use less than 36Ah, all is well.
If you use more, than it will take more than one recharge to put all the energy back.

If you put an elcon in, the blue box is no longer necessary.

however, you can use it to control a fast charger or a dump charge pack (if you would like to explore that option).
The original nimh battery with either another powersupply (48v and however many amps you want to charge at) or another battery is a good option.

I could also buy the blue box back from you.

Matt

How much of a difference does it make, that the Li-XX chemistry has higher charging efficiency than NiMh?

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit
(you can actually see this in the diagnostic video)

Might make some sense to post the link to your videos in your posts that reference them. I know it seems redundant to you as you are posting them at the same time, but to someone reading this site later when you mention them and there is no quick way to find the video you are referring to, it's frustrating.

-Randy

Good point:
Diagnostic video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km4U0d1okRc

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

How much of a difference does it make, that the Li-XX chemistry has higher charging efficiency than NiMh?

It means the charger doesn't get to do the full CC stage as the voltage reaches the cut off.

It also means the energy used by the bike is less.

I just measured what mine does in Winter (min tonight was 5 deg C)
That was on the freeway, 100-110kmh for 30km and 42km of 60-80kmh (traffic got in the way)

72.2km took 38.32Ah 5.35kwh at the battery, and 6.4kwh from the wall on recharge (used elcon 1500W 8A charger)
I also measured 0.8644Ah of regen.

In summer the kwh at battery and at wall are closer together, and the energy used at the battery is lower (denser air and more voltage sag).

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Brutus
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Greetings.
I completed my vectrix conversion about 4 weeks ago and wanted to share my assessment.
My 2007 vectrix was purchased new in late 2010. When purchased, the range was about 50kms but

within weeks was greatly reduced - due at least in part to battery abuse and lack of knowledge on

my part.

I studied Matt's videos before committing to the conversion and ordering his kit. I wanted to

know that I would be capable first. Remaining anxieties included the lack of standard color-

coding on the native wiring.

My conversion went fairly well - with only a couple of minor mishaps - yes, I was the silly sod

who blew up his multimeter.

After the conversion I was purturbed to find an indicated range after a full charge of 42kms -

and this was fairly accurate in the distance that took me to 1/zero bars. However, at that point

the battery voltage had hardly dropped, so clearly I was not using much of its capacity. I

concluded that my charger was programmed to a smaller capacity. I then bought the programming

lead and sourced the software to program. However, I was not able to get any green lights on the

software interface. The process of exclusion indicated this was a software/loading problem. After

borrowing a laptop I was finally able to talk to the CAN yesterday. This confirmed the battery

capacity was set quite low. I reset it to 32Ah and set about testing the range. After recharging,

only half bars were showing, so I again used the software to reset the screen to full bars.

The estimated range on startup was 72kms. I travelled 75.3kms at town speed (60-70kmph) and had 4

bars remaining. I didn't notice any significant reduction in performance toward the end. No red

lights. In my normal use, it will be exceptional to use this depth of discharge. Instead I will

aim for maximal recharge cycles by having small DODs. After a further charge, the indicated range

was 102kms.

I've now covered about 600kms since converting my bike. I guess the kms will accumulate quicker

now that I have a reasonable range. For the first 5 or so recharges, the BMS/blue box kicked in

and disconnected the charger. It has not since. Without a good technical understanding (see above

multimeter incident) my guess is that internal shunting has equalised the 42 cells now.

Matts kit and videos made the conversion accessible to me - I probably would not have tackled it

otherwise. But what was most valuable was the support (phone, email) that came with it. I can

really recommend this conversion and kit to others.

CHL lithium battery
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

around 300cell of CHL 50AH batteries will arrive in Australia next week,anyone would like to convert vectrix,welcome to contact with Eric Dressler

Managing Director

eRider

All Electric Transportation
Electric Motorcycles

Electric Scooters
Electric Bicycles
&
Electric Vehicles

www.erider.com.au

ABN 49 080 874 004
67 Matthews Avenue
Corner Earl & Matthews

Airport West 3042
VICTORIA
AUSTRALIA
PH (M) 0414 800 559
PH (B) 03 9310 4664

DSC03193.JPG

heathyoung
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Out of interest, what would be the price for 42 of the 40AH cells and a price for 42 of the 50AH cells, shipped by sea to Australia?

The seller is charging a bit too much for the 50AH versions (basically the same as 60AH thunderskys)...

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Out of interest, what would be the price for 42 of the 40AH cells and a price for 42 of the 50AH cells, shipped by sea to Australia?

The seller is charging a bit too much for the 50AH versions (basically the same as 60AH thunderskys)...

Pls contact with Mr Eric on www.erider.com.au

ABN 49 080 874 004
67 Matthews Avenue
Corner Earl & Matthews

Airport West 3042
VICTORIA
AUSTRALIA
PH (M) 0414 800 559
PH (B) 03 9310 4664

I think he will give you the best prices.

heathyoung
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I already have contacted him, his 50AH cells are only $3 AUD cheaper than the 60AH thunderskys he sells.

ie. $87 for 50AH CHL (Listed on ebay for a buy-it-now with free postage) = $1.75 per AH
$90 for 60AH Thundersky (http://www.erider.com.au/prod57.htm) = $1.50 per AH
$60 for 40AH Tundersky (http://www.erider.com.au/prod56.htm) = $1.50 per AH
EVWorks...

$87 for 60AH Sky Energy (http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-SE060AHA) = 1.45 per AH
$87 for 60AH Thundersky (http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-LFP60AHA) = 1.45 per AH
$60 for 40AH Thundersky (http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-LFP40AHA) = 1.50 per AH

I'd like to try the 50AH cells, but not at that price - Perference at the moment would be Sky Energy, they are a known and proven quantity.

A newcomer to the market needs to be price competitive in regards to established competition - searching for CHL on all of the EV sites only brings up results from people asking if anyone has tried the cells yet.

Its tempting to buy 4 and torture test them though.

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

$87 for 60AH Sky Energy (http://www.evworks.com.au/index.php?product=BAT-SE060AHA) = 1.45 per AH

Sky Energy 60Ah cells won't fit with the new kit as the dimensions aren't favourable :(
However their 70Ah cells will fit (ain't life strange?)

Using the CHL 50AH cells is turning out to be a little harder than first thought,
Oobflyer is in the process of doing a conversion with the CHL 50Ah cells, and he just sent me this picture:

Vectrix CHL 50AH.JPG

The additional height relative to the 40Ah cells has added a couple of new challenges, so we will see how it goes

It may be worthwhile to wait for the newest kit later this year that allows use of the larger cells.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

To be a good start,I will persuade Eric to give you better prices on 50AH.

Anyway,TS and SLAB is very high impedance, vectrix controller release big current and damage to high impedance battery.

Look at the following 3C constant discharged data of our 50AH battery,very low temperature raised
DSC03312.JPG

DSC03320.JPG

DSC03318.JPG

Look at the right line,most cell's temperature less than 40 degree after 19 minutes 150A continues discharged

DSC03321.JPG

heathyoung
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Woah - thats tight.

A thought occurs (as it does from time to time) :)

Rather than have the top layer with the terminals upwards, have the batteries on their sides on top of the bottom layer (ie. with their terminals facing the left or right hand side of the bike)

The height on the new cells is 203mm vs 184mm, and the thickness is 61mm vs 47mm - but - stacked on top of each other, you still have 203 + 122mm (2 X 61mm) = 325mm (I have some 10 SLA batteries (yes, I know) that sits 340H and juuuuust fits) and the length would be 114X6 = 684 (ie less than 700mm) so they fit in that dimension as well.

This requires moving the blue relay box for the bms to the hole created by the removal of the fan. No cutting of the battery cover either.

The batteries can be mounted in this position, they won't leak.

Not sure how high the joining straps + BMS sit though...

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

what kind of BMS will you use ? Vectrix have original BMS on NIMH battery ?

heathyoung
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Nope - the BMS is a unit that sits on the top of each cell, between the two terminals that has a resistive shunt that activates at >3.65V, and has a NC output for 'within limits' of cell voltage between 3.65 and 2.5V that is used for turning on/off chargers, warning lights etc etc.

Very tempting to install some cell-logs (these are an 8 channel unit that displays individual cell voltages for 8 cells, their delta v between highest and lowest, and has a settable alarm output for when one goes out of balance, or if the delta V is too great. Makes finding a dead or runt cell simple.

These are also available with a data logging function as well.

I had another idea about cell orientation with the CHL 50AH - face the whole lot with the terminals on the side (left or right) in a 6 wide, 7 High arrangement.

Gives a pack dimension of 329 high by 690 long by 203 wide - fits with room to spare, and no cutting of the battery box either. Also allows you to remove the packing on the side and inspect all of the BMS lights without having to remove the top layer of cells.

This arrangement would also allow strapping the cells in blocks of 7 with palleting strap.

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Thanks for explanation,Is it any balance between these PCM ? how to balance ? by heat ? who is manufacturer of these PCM ?

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Thanks for explanation,Is it any balance between these PCM ? how to balance ? by heat ? who is manufacturer of these PCM ?

Yes there is balancing,
the shunt comes on when voltage exceeds 3.65v (shunt current starts at 300mA, and climbs to 700mA when cell voltage reaches 4v)
the charge is bled off as heat

At 4v, the master module disconnects the charger, indicating a balance fault.

the manufacturer is www.evpower.com.au
They are made in Australia

The first time balance takes a long time, however, after that daily balancing doesn't impede charge rate at all.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

heathyoung
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Looks like my clever idea may be a dead duck, so to speak - apparently a 6X7 arrangement wont work...

http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1612
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/9972-thundersky-cell-orientation

What remains to be seen is if a 3X14 arrangement (ie. horizontal on the tall section) would fit - that is 3 X 115 = 345mm Tall - would fit in the battery box or not...

Time to make up some dummy cells I think...

With a 3 cell X 14 arrangement, it may be possible to strap the cells as well, in groups of 3X2 - since there is a fair bit of room lengthwise with this setup.

Thoughts?

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