Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

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Todd
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Any news on the conversions. Especially the 70AH batteries - pricing, install options etc. I know its a stretch but I am 45 miles from Houston and my goal is to have a bike I can drive to work downtown.

I am not concerned about cutting or loosing the space in front of the seat, I am used to a sport bike so its irrelevant. I love my Vectrix and with a 80+ mile range it would be an incredible every day commuter.

Todd

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi Todd,

80 miles is a bit of a stretch, even with 70Ah, basically you would need to go 40mph or less the whole time, and not encounter any significant elevation change.

45 miles on the other hand is easy, you could do that at 70mph the whole way....

basically its:
45 miles @ 70mph,
50 miles @ 60mph
60 miles @ 50mph
80 miles @ 40mph

Are you able to charge at work?
Recharge time from completely empty is 7 hours using the stock charger

Approx total conversion cost using 70Ah cells is $6k

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Todd
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi Matt,

The 70Ahs would give me complete anonymity on local trips and I think allow me to use the V to commute downtown. I average about 80 miles a day when I go to Houston. About 70% of that is freeway(60mph) and Houston is FLAT. So the goal would be to run 40 miles, charge 2 - 4 hrs, and do another 40 miles home. I go to clients at various locations so not all the trips are the same.

Yes I know it's a stretch but I can find alternate routes that do not require as much freeway and I am pretty good at stretching a charge.

Have you managed to put the 70Ahs in a V yet? Wondering if you worked out the placement of the larger cells. Do you have a link to info on the batteries?

Todd

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Have you managed to put the 70Ahs in a V yet? Wondering if you worked out the placement of the larger cells. Do you have a link to info on the batteries?

Hi Todd,

I still haven't done the 70Ah conversion, my day (actually night) job has been taking more of my time than usual.

The 70Ah cells are physically the same size as the 60Ah cells I used in my own Vectrix back in May 2010, so yes I have done one.

I'm still in the process of making the kit shipping friendly as well as being straight forward enough to put together for the average person to do (so no tig welding...)

battery link:
http://lithiumstorage.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=&products_id=10

There are many other importers within the USA to choose from,

or you can import some yourself:
http://cali-battery.en.alibaba.com/product/406055271-211992146/SE70AHA.html

regards,
Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

DanDiego
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I recently bought a 2011 Vectrix VX-1 Lithium model (not the Plus model) and I logged 45.3 miles on city streets at about 45 to 50MPH average. I also rode it flat out at 68MPH on the freeway and got 27 miles. I weigh about 190 lbs. Maybe this will give some comparison to those of you who have done lithium conversions.. The bike has a 24 month factory warranty. There is now a dealer in San Diego and they seem to know the bikes pretty well. Sales price was $11,995. Dealer gave me $700 for my 2007 VX-1 (with blown motor controller) and I'm getting $900 check from CAlif. Air Resources Board for buying an EV. The bike is great! 80 lbs. lighter than my 2007 NiMh bike.

DanDiego

CHL lithium battery
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

GP lithium battery ? 26650 or 18860 ? could you show us some photos of batteries and BMS ?

BurgerMario
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi

Here are the specs of GP cells from Vectrix Li (GP30EVLF) and Li+ (GP45EVLF)

http://www.evbtech.com/lifep04-cells/

Mario

-------- http://www.vectrix-forum.de --------
THE FIRST german VECTRIX Forum

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I recently bought a 2011 Vectrix VX-1 Lithium model (not the Plus model) and I logged 45.3 miles on city streets at about 45 to 50MPH average. I also rode it flat out at 68MPH on the freeway and got 27 miles. I weigh about 190 lbs.

Good to hear you have a new ride :)

It is in many ways superior to the original (negligible self discharge for one).

The range you got is what one would expect, using the full 30Ah capacity.
Note: using the cells full capacity is not good from a service life point of view, however that battery will still last *much* longer and be more reliable than if you tried to use the full capacity of the nimh version.

Your range is the same as what the converted bikes with 40Ah cells get, as you still only use 30Ah.
The difference is you're not using the full capacity, so at 30Ah discharged, theres no speed restriction and only minor reduction in acceleration.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

CHL lithium battery
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi

Here are the specs of GP cells from Vectrix Li (GP30EVLF) and Li+ (GP45EVLF)

http://www.evbtech.com/lifep04-cells/

Mario

I saw the website,LFP protect at 2.0V is too dangerous.normally we cut off BMS at 2.8V each cell.

BurgerMario
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit
Hi

Here are the specs of GP cells from Vectrix Li (GP30EVLF) and Li+ (GP45EVLF)

http://www.evbtech.com/lifep04-cells/

Mario

I saw the website,LFP protect at 2.0V is too dangerous.normally we cut off BMS at 2.8V each cell.

Hi!

I don´t know the cutoff voltage of Vx1 li+ :(
The "normal" VX1 Nimh min Voltage is 107 volt...

107v / 40 LFP are 2,675 Volt...

CU

Mario

EDIT: Vectrix VX1li with 0 Bars cuts the power to 25-35kmh and the the Voltage is 117Volt......

-------- http://www.vectrix-forum.de --------
THE FIRST german VECTRIX Forum

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I saw the website,LFP protect at 2.0V is too dangerous.normally we cut off BMS at 2.8V each cell.

it depends somewhat the current which has caused the voltage to fall to 2V.

2V is of course a hard limit, below that the cell starts to short circuit internally.
It does not matter whether 2v is reached due to all Ah discahrged, or very high A, or both.

I agree its best to use a higher cutoff,
be aware though that this reduces max power and acceleration
I use 2.5V average as my cutoff, but you won't reach it unless you go well past 0 bars (for the 40Ah kit)

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

stunes
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi Matt,

Great work on the conversion kit. My bike has 23000kms on the original NiMh array and although range has depleted slightly it is still up around 40km's and going strong, the Lithium upgrade would transform the way I use the bike (range considerations).

Any news on a Melbourne contact to arrange a kit? How much does the kit differ from parts in the new factory Lithium bike? On that issue are you aware of any moves to re-establish a Vectrix dealership in Australia?

Cheers,

Stuart

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Any news on a Melbourne contact to arrange a kit? How much does the kit differ from parts in the new factory Lithium bike? On that issue are you aware of any moves to re-establish a Vectrix dealership in Australia?

Hi Stuart,

I'm still working on the drop shipping business model, although I'm happy to have dealers if they are willing to perform turn-key conversions.

I don't sell a great many kits (so far 2 have gone to Vic, 3 to California)

The factory Lithium bike uses different shape LiFePO4 cells, and uses a BMS that communicates with the CAN bus, so uses the original display to show voltage and temperature while riding.
ironically, this is more important with the nimh version than the Lithium one!

My 40Ah kit will get you the same range as the VX1 Li (more if you have the temerity to ride past 0 bars, though not recommended).

Using 50Ah cells will get you almost as much range as the VX1 Li+

The kit version 2 that I'm still working on gets you way more range than the Li+

I'm and outsider to Vectrix corp, so no idea when they will start bringing bikes back down under.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

stunes
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Thanks Matt.

I'll be in contact when I get motivated to do an upgrade.

When do you expect to have the new version ready to go?

Great work mate. You are providing a great service for Vectrix owners wanting more from their machinery.

cheers,

Stuart

oobflyer
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Using 50Ah cells will get you almost as much range as the VX1 Li+

The Vectrix VX1 Li+ has a 42AH pack, why would it have better range than the 50AH conversion?

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Using 50Ah cells will get you almost as much range as the VX1 Li+

The Vectrix VX1 Li+ has a 42AH pack, why would it have better range than the 50AH conversion?

Its best to limit depth of discharge to 40Ah, when using 50Ah cells for best life.

Vectrix corp has always been more interested in max range than max service life, so they will try to use the full 42Ah.

So you will likely get further with the VX1 Li+, however, at the end of discharge the bike won't be able to move.

Whereas with a 50Ah battery you will get 40Ah very reliably, even accounting for imbalance, self discharge, and capacity loss as the battery ages.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Mik
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I think it is desirable to get the same throttle response irrespective of SOC, ambient temperature etc. It's a safety issue on a 2-wheeler.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Anderson
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Incidentally, I discovered the temp sensors don't actually have to be connected to any cells at all, they just need to be plugged into the CAN bus.

Matt

This quote is from message #16 from http://visforvoltage.org/forum/11525-50ah-li-ion-conversion-successful

I was wondering exactly what do you do with them if you don't connect them to the battery.

1. Wherever you put them will they have to be electricaly insulated from each other ?

2. I'm thinking of putting mine outside the battery box where there is is enough space for all the wire, would there be any high voltage potential danger of doing it that way ?

3. There's one black wire that has a ring terminal connector that comes from the area where the wires going to the temp sensors
are coming from (I don't know if there are more), can this be left disconected ?

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit
Incidentally, I discovered the temp sensors don't actually have to be connected to any cells at all, they just need to be plugged into the CAN bus.

I was wondering exactly what do you do with them if you don't connect them to the battery.
1. Wherever you put them will they have to be electricaly insulated from each other ?

2. I'm thinking of putting mine outside the battery box where there is is enough space for all the wire, would there be any high voltage potential danger of doing it that way ?

The temp sensors are powered from 12v, the sensors themselves are not live with respect to each other.
There is no hazardous voltage connected to the temp sensors unless you bolt them to the battery cells.

3. There's one black wire that has a ring terminal connector that comes from the area where the wires going to the temp sensors
are coming from (I don't know if there are more), can this be left disconected ?

Yep, they can all be left disconnected

I normally bundle all the wires together and run electrical tape around them

If you are using a cycle analyst, and won't be using the original fuel gauge (for instance using 50Ah cells or larger) or don't mind running older (62mph) firmware, than the temp sensors can be eliminated completely

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

stunes
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi Matt,

I've been researching and watching your YouTube videos and I'm finding it fascinating to learn more about the conversions and also having things my bike does explained in the process. Great work mate!

Couple of questions for you:

Is the cycle computer absolutely necessary as part of the conversion? I'm not too keen on butchering the dash and would prefer to keep the outside of the bike original.

So the cooling fans are no longer required for charging?

There seems to be a lot of commentary about which of the 3 versions of batteries you recommend for the conversion. Which one would you personally go for?

And finally, were Vectrix being overly optimistic by saying the original Nimh array would last 80,000kms or 10 years in their promotional material? It seems like nobody's getting anywhere near that. I actually think I'm doing pretty well at 23000 kms although I have lost a cell recently. But I'm still getting a reliable 30kms out of a charge.

kingcharles
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Little off topic but I changed to winter tyres a few weeks back and the bike shop told me he was going to do an official Vectrix lithium conversion together with the Dutch importer (escini). This is for a customer that wants more range.
So it seems Vectrix has started to offer this option now too.

Once you go EV, Gas is history!

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hiya,

Is the cycle computer absolutely necessary as part of the conversion? I'm not too keen on butchering the dash and would prefer to keep the outside of the bike original.

So the cooling fans are no longer required for charging?

There seems to be a lot of commentary about which of the 3 versions of batteries you recommend for the conversion. Which one would you personally go for?

The original fuel gauge has a maximum range of 32Ah, so its only really useful for 40Ah cells
Someone may one day be able to hack the firmware to allow a greater range, but for the moment, when using larger cells, a cycle analyst is necessary.

The cooling fans are no longer required, the cells just don't heat up during charging

I personally use 60Ah cells, though if I were to do my own bike again, I would use 70Ah (they weren't available when I did by own conversion).

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

stunes
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi again Matt,

Mate I'm convinced!

I'd like an opportunity to buy a new Li+ Vectrix some day but there's no outlook for them starting in Aust again as yet. And my bikes starting to lose cells so if I have to do something and it wont be to put new NimH back in it again.

So I want to buy the deluxe conversion kit (full package) and do the Lithium conversion now. And I know a supplier in Melbourne offering the CHL 50Ah cells.

So how can I organise a kit Matt? You mentioned a while ago you would make them available through eBay?

And the kit comes with a full instructional video doesn't it? (I'm a mechanic by trade but only have basic knowledge of electricals)

Let me know the best option.

Cheers,

Stuart

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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi Stuart,

Terrific, another conversion in the works :)

So I want to buy the deluxe conversion kit (full package) and do the Lithium conversion now. And I know a supplier in Melbourne offering the CHL 50Ah cells.

So how can I organise a kit Matt? You mentioned a while ago you would make them available through eBay?

And the kit comes with a full instructional video doesn't it? (I'm a mechanic by trade but only have basic knowledge of electricals)

The 50Ah cells are larger than the 40Ah cells I originally designed the kit for
The main difference is most of the fan cover has to be cut away, and one of the plastic pieces needs to be a different shape.

Oobflyer has done a good write up of his conversion using 50Ah cells:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/11525-50ah-li-ion-conversion-successful#comment-62238

I initially made the kits available via ebay, however, I found most of the sales were coming directly either from people watching the videos on youtube, or through this forum.

To order, just private message me your email address and I will email back an invoice
Payment is usually by paypal, but since you are in Australia, bank deposit or a cheque is also fine.
if you prefer to send it to my email address instead,
My email address is mc dot lacey at iinet dot net dot au (dot = . at = @, keeps spam at bay)

The instruction video is the one already on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCFDD8780E3FBEFD5

I'm also on hand to help talk you through the conversion process

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

oobflyer
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I personally use 60Ah cells, though if I were to do my own bike again, I would use 70Ah (they weren't available when I did by own conversion).

Matt, I'm still a bit unclear as to how to use the Cycle Analyst to gauge your pack capacity when it exceeds that of the original. You are charging the 60AH pack with an off-board Elcon charger, correct? So you know that the pack is full based on the 60AH that have gone into the pack (according to the Cycle Analyst). Then when you ride - you just ignore the Vectrix fuel gauge (red battery light, etc.) and keep riding until the Cycle Analyst tells you that you have ridden to the point of 80% discharge (48AH)?

When using the off-board charger, does the charger turn off automatically after charging for 48AH? I'm thinking of getting an Elcon charger and using it to charge my 50AH pack.

Thanks and congrats to stunes!

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

I'm still a bit unclear as to how to use the Cycle Analyst to gauge your pack capacity when it exceeds that of the original. You are charging the 60AH pack with an off-board Elcon charger, correct? So you know that the pack is full based on the 60AH that have gone into the pack (according to the Cycle Analyst). Then when you ride - you just ignore the Vectrix fuel gauge (red battery light, etc.) and keep riding until the Cycle Analyst tells you that you have ridden to the point of 80% discharge (48AH)?

When using the off-board charger, does the charger turn off automatically after charging for 48AH? I'm thinking of getting an Elcon charger and using it to charge my 50AH pack.

My Elcon charger charges at 13.4A until the voltage reaches 153v, then holds 153v until current falls to 2A.
At that point the battery is full and the charger shuts down by itself.

When I go to use the bike, if the Ah count is negative, I reset it to 0Ah
this happens on every full charge, though the amount the Ah count is negative depends upon how long ago the last full charge was.
I only charge during off peak, I work night shift, and I'm not always able to charge at work.
So that means I don't get a full charge every day.

I aim to stop riding by 48Ah
I have been up to 53Ah discharged, however, every time I do that I know there is a risk of cell loss
so I try to plan my trip to stay below 48Ah discharged

I do ignore the stock fuel guage
I have not seen the red battery light since I converted my Vectrix

The Laird has made a firmware revision for the original Vectrix charger, so that it keeps charging until the battery is full (reaches 153v @ 2A)
I just have yet to test it to confirm it works as intended

When the new revision is loaded onto your charger, the original fuel guage will revert to a volt-meter, giving a visual indication of voltage sag, but for the most part the cycle analyst tells you everything you need to know.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Mik
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

...
...

The Laird has made a firmware revision for the original Vectrix charger, so that it keeps charging until the battery is full (reaches 153v @ 2A)
I just have yet to test it to confirm it works as intended...
Matt

Is this really correct?

I doubt that the battery would ever reach that voltage at 2A, and if it did, it would certainly heat up badly in the process. The target voltage in The Lairds software version must be much lower than 153V, unless I misunderstand something here.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit
The Laird has made a firmware revision for the original Vectrix charger, so that it keeps charging until the battery is full (reaches 153v @ 2A)

Is this really correct?

I doubt that the battery would ever reach that voltage at 2A, and if it did, it would certainly heat up badly in the process. The target voltage in The Lairds software version must be much lower than 153V, unless I misunderstand something here.

Hi Mik,

The revision is for the Lithium conversions,

On all the conversions, the chargers should normally charge during the CP stage until either the voltage goes above 150V, or the bars reach full.
Then it should charge at 2-3A (depending upon what software is loaded) during the CC stage until voltage reaches 150 - 155V.

If the battery is imbalanced, than the BMS may stop the charger before this happens

It doesn't matter if the charger holds a constant 153v until current falls to 2A, or if the charger holds a constant 2A, until votlage rises to 153v.

The later just takes more time than the former.

The temperature rise on the lithium cells aren't measurable (if at all)

Basically the voltage stays around ~144v for most of the charge cycle, then when the battery nears 100%SOC, the voltage rises fairly quickly to the chargers max voltage.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km

Mik
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Hi Mik,

The revision is for the Lithium conversions,
...
...

Aha, a clear case of not thinking before posting....(on my part...)

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

oobflyer
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Re: Vectrix Lithium Conversion Kit

Included in the conversion kit is a small red light. In the instruction video this light is placed inside the battery box along with the "blue box", so it is not visible after the conversion. It looks like this light was originally intended to be installed in the dash. I'm curious what it does - I imagine it will light up when the BMS is tripped (?). If so, I might go back in and install it somewhere visible.

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