I am very pleased with my ZEV 6100 electric maxi-scooter. It has been modified by adding a Cycle Analyst computer and halogen headlights. It is a pleasure to ride, and does everything I bought it for and more.
When I was shopping for a e-scooter, I was looking for an e-scooter that would get me around the local towns and occasional short excursions on highways (up to 55mph and range of 30miles). I live right up against the foothills of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado so hill climbing capability was important. I looked at the Zero/Brammo e-motorcyles but didn't want the noise of a chain driven bike, plus I liked the low center of gravity on the e-scooter designs with hub motors. I tested a R-Martin EVD 3000w but it was gutless and couldn't exceed 35mph up small inclines in this area. So I started looking at the XM-5000Li. Then as an odd twist of fate while spending a few weeks on vacation in Kauai, I ended up drinking beers for a few hours with the owner of the X-treme bikes. I picked his brain on what typically fails on his XM-5000li's and how long I would have to wait for a reliable BMS. When I got back to the mainland, I stumbled across the ZEV e-scooters. At first, I thought they were an X-treme distributor as their bikes looked like XM's. But as I read more about ZEV, I found out that they are a US manufacturer that had designed a bike that lookes like the XM's but without the failings.
At first I wanted the ZEV 7100; why not go for overkill. In Colorado we have great tax incentives to do our patriotic duty and ride EVs. The ZEV 7100 would have cost me $4321 after tax credits; a great price! But the ZEV 6100 was only $2431 after tax credits; I couldn't build the bike for that. So, it was a no-brainer; I bought the 6100.
When my bike arrived, I was immediately impressed with how well it was built. The paint was beautiful and the body panels aligned perfectly. It just looked much better than I imagined. I unpacked it, gave it a quickie charge, and took it for a spin. Everything worked great once I remembered to use the three-speed electronic transmission (first gear only goes up to 28~30mph).
After, getting the bike registered and having more time riding it, I was impressed with how easy it handled and how stable it felt to ride. It didn't take much time to realize the speedometer wasn't accurate and read high like many other scooters. So, I installed the large screen version Cycle Analyst CA) computer and am so glad I did. The CA provides:
-accurate speed, mileage, voltage, amps, miles, WH, AH, WH/Mile, max speed, avg speed, and battery pack life statistics (#of charge cycles, total AH, total miles).
-user programmable throttle allows control over the throttle, allows limiting of speed, limiting of max current, via a pot/knob can dynamically limit torque for greater range, and allowing partitioning of battery to create a reserve partition (virtual spare battery).
all that and the CA looks great on the handlebars; just like it was meant to be installed on a ZEV.
So what is the ZEV 6100? It is a 6100w (or 7200w with 120A controller), 77V, 40AH LiFeMPo4 w/per cell BMS maxi-scooter, with a max speed of 63mph (I verified mine to 64mph). It comes with a cool running 8500w cont. rated hub motor and air shocks. It is 78" long with a wheelbase of 58.5". Weight is under 300 lbs. Adequate headlights (I upgraded to 35w halogens) and very bright tail lights (total 90watts each!: running light 55w and stop light 35w). With those lights shining back at the cars behind me, cars keep their distance from me at the intersections.
Range - always a tough one to describe as everyone rides differently and over different conditions. When I bought the bike I went by the standard divide by two rule when looking at manufacturer's specs as real world riding is much different from riding at a constant speed on a perfect track. Accelerations just suck power. The max distance I have gone without recharging is 36 miles. But that is because the streets in my rolling hills area are all 40-45mph min. I don't take the battery down more than 32AH 80%DOD. Typically, I get 1.25mile/AH at 35-40mph, 1.0mile/AH at 45-50mph, and .75mph/AH at 55-60mph. Or looking at it another way, I typically use 69WH/mile (min 62WH/mile max 79WH/mile) on a trip.
Acceleration - at low speeds its zippy; at high speeds its adequate with 100A controller and only 77V. Best way to describe that is it is easy to break away from the pack of cars at intersections (pet peeve - getting stuck behind a car in the left turn lane - cars turn too slowly). If I find myself in the wrong lane at an intersection, I usually don't have a problem overtaking and getting in front of the car in the other lane (only problem was when a car was trying to do the same thing). This is with the standard 100A controller. But you can also get the 120A or 130A controller if you want more acceleration.
Hill climbing - with the standard 100A controller I do OK in this area. It would be much better for completely flat boring terrain. I probably should have ordered the 6100 with the 120A controller for highway use here. I have a steep, long hill between Boulder and Golden that slows me down to 48mph on this windy 55mph highway. The only saving grace is that there is usually a car that is also struggling to get up the hill, so I can just get behind them. In addition to 120A and 130A controllers, ZEV also has "alpine" motors which provide much more torque but with giving up around 10mph in speed. So I could have gone with the 6100 w/120A controller or a 7100 alpine and had the same max speed but much more torque.
All in all, it is a great ride and I rarely drive a car anymore. PM me if you would like help in picking the right ZEV for you.
"When I got back to the mainland, I stumbled across the ZEV e-scooters. At first, I thought they were an X-treme distributor as their bikes looked like XM's. But as I read more about ZEV, I found out that they are a US manufacturer that had designed a bike that lookes like the XM's but without the failings."
ZEV is actually more of a US 'assembler', with most of the parts either off the shelf from China or designed by ZEV and built in China. The handlebar controls, brakes (at least the calipers) and batteries seem to be the same ones used on my XM. I agree that the fit, finish and quality control are much better than with the XMs (I have both an XM-3000 and a ZEV 5000LA that is currently en route back to the factory to have major shipping damage repaired). The lead-acid batteries in the 5000LA make it much heavier than the 6100, so my bike is a bit more awkward and has a bit of oversteer at speed, but if the range exceeds that of my XM by a substantial margin, I think I'll be happy with it. I really wish that I could use that tax credit...
Thanks again IB, Great review - I was looking at ZEV but, it is a quandary as to which scooter(which Watt motor?). The more the wattage the less the range so, we need bigger batt packs & the more torque the less the speed? Do I want a 6100W , 7100W or 8500W Trail model - I usually get the best for the $'s then want to upgrade everything so, this time I will probably will get 7100 Alpine(w/ optional 8500W) with less range or 7100 long range with less power or 7100W/8500W/9200W Trail??????? I thick they get the body parts from China and and build it in USA with upgraded components - Check out www.electricscooterschina.com - they have both models but, ZEV uses better motors, controllers, electronics, longer frames and the newest Lithium(LiFeMPo4). Which I think, can be charged much faster, can be discharged faster and run cooler than any other Lithiums. If I get the Trail, I will probably look for a fairing/windshield to make it more aerodynamic and block the wind. And I am thinking about combining all my LiFePo4 packs and my 400 loose 18650's into a large pack in the voltage of the model I buy for longer trips to denver. I've been pulling a bike trailer around with up to a 100 lbs. and I think if I get a highway worthy aluminum(light weight) trailer to put extra batt packs and maybe a small generator to charge the dead packs? Who knows what is rattling around in my mind - Scary !!! Thanks - Colorado scooters Rule !!!
Snowryder,
First, thanks for correcting Leftiebiker's misunderstanding on how much ZEV redesigns these bikes.
Second, wow if you are planning trips from Vail to Denver on hwy 70, you are going to need some huge torque for your monster hills and huge AHs. I would suggest a Trail 8500 alpine as a minimum. That would reduce speed to 70mph but you would get much more torque as I understand it. You could use the CA to throttle down the amps for normal trips and then pump it back up for your hwy hills.
You aren't going to find a motor that powerful elsewhere and what about reliability and support from China??? Yie, you must enjoy throwing the dice.
A model trail 8500 would be $4320 after credits this year and $5506 using next years credits.
I can't wait to see ZEVs 30KW motor for the Reverse Trike project.
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
What's my misunderstanding? You called ZEV a manufacturer, and the company itself uses the word "assembled" (in USA). Do they build the motors here? I'm sure they make a few odds and ends, maybe the controllers, but ZEV is not an American manufacturer, and doesn't claim to be one. Maybe your bike doesn't have controls and brakes that are also found on X-Treme scooters, but mine does, along with the batteries...
Wow, my ZEV 6100 must be the most efficient highway capable maxi-scooter around. Check out my post regarding the efficiency of the ZEV 6100 vs the CUMCO C130 and VX-1: go down to message #24.
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/9971-detailed-range-data-c130-deluxe
C130 requires 45-47% more power per mile than my ZEV 6100.
VX-1 requires 76% more power per mile than my ZEV 6100
And that is with the ZEV not using any regen braking!! Who needs 3-7% regen when you have a motor this efficient!!
My 6100 makes me smile : )
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
And see message #25 that disputes the absolute efficiency numbers but does state that the overall bike (not the motor) is more efficient because of the simple fact it's about 25% lighter than a C130, but the C130 has a 66% bigger battery pack.
smaller pack = lighter bike = less work to do but less range
larger pack = heavier bike = more work to do but more range
It's your choice - and I'm glad you're smiling.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
I started looking into the ZEV motor efficiency after I was informed that 10 motors/controllers had been sold by Zehrbach Engineering for use in the 65,000' altitude Skysat airship for NORAD (the stators and magnet rings of these motors are the same as in my 6100 motor). Before I retired, I used to work for industrial/military grade controller/computer manufacturers, and I know how hard it is to get designed into a project like this. Your product has to be of the highest quality with a huge amount of margin designed in. This shows me that Zehrbach Engineering really know their motors.
So it got me wondering, if Zehrbach can make a motor that rugged, reliable, and efficient to be used in a military airship, how efficient is my 6100 motor compared to others out there. Efficiency = less WH/mile = less impact on the environment and more money saved.
So I looked to see if other manufacturers were quoting in terms of WH/mile. Not a lot of info out there. But I came across the single detailed boast by Current Motor Co (CUMCO) when they were trying to impress us with how much info they were sharing and how great their range data was. Now, it is only natural for a company to want to show their product in the most favorable light. But, I took the CUMCO data as is.
It is very hard to compare efficiencies of two bikes that aren't being run under the exact same conditions. But I thought I would take a fun worst-case stab at it anyways (what's the worst my bike could do against a C130). So I poured through this year's Cycle Analyst computer data to find the one route that put my ZEV 6100 in the absolute worst possible light (the route that sucked the most WH/mile). That's the data I used. Moreover, where CUMCO didn't show any elevation data, my data included a rural 55mph highway/expressway 8.5-mile long (17 mile round-trip) middle portion with cross-winds that had to climb a peak 800' on one side and 600' on the other side. That's the height of a 80 story building! On this highway is numerous intersections and times when one must completely stop and return to highway speeds (WH killer!). Balance of trip through standard city terrain with stoplights everywhere.
Taking my worst-case data, my bike still did 45% better than the C130 or 45% less money to run per mile. Is this a scientific experiment? Of course not. It was just a fun exercise; and I hope if nothing else, it gets more riders to state the efficiencies of their bikes. Now, John tried his best to dispute this data by mentioning pack size and bike weights (which he screwed up by using the wrong numbers and not including the rider in the calculations which reduces the impact of the bike weight). Also he got talking about range when the topic was efficiency (WH/mile). All in all, it was a fun exercise.
This thread is about one man and the bike he gladly bought. It isn't about a competition between ZEV vs CUMCO. I want both to be successful; the consumer wins when there is plenty of competition. So I hope someday, CUMCO is actually able to get a bike into full production. My hopes for that outcome where taken back a little though when John made the following admissions of their motor overheating problems in post 24 & 25 in this link:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/10702-my-c124e-bike
So let's hope that their new larger motor solves the problem. But if it doesn't, they will put oil in it and maybe then it will work. But if that doesn't do the job, then they still have two more involved options to try (that will also increase efficiency) per John's own words. It's seems odd to still be having a motor issue 1 1/2 years after selling their first C130 to a customer that paid full price. Maybe if John spent less time in these threads and more time helping his company get the bike into production.... John, trust your bike owners to speak for you here.
CUMCO, I wish you the best of luck; scooter riders are counting on your success; so step up your game; and who knows, maybe down the rode I will buy one of your bikes.
ZEV, thanks for a great bike.
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
IBScootn, how were you "informed" about Zehrbach Engineering's sale of drone motors to NORAD? If by a press release, please post a link to it. I mean, any company that makes such a significant sale to an important government organization typically issues a press release. I don't mean to doubt the honesty of what you're saying, it's just that I strongly suspect it's untrue.
To; rehalliburton
This customer was informed about the high altitude motors as he has constantly fed us data and bombarded us with questions about motors and controllers. He is an engineer with knowledge of motors and controllers so I can talk to him in detail. He discovered the military project as a result of these discussions only in the last week.
This project started out from the prime is Kratos (Prime)through its Digital Fusion division; the Army customer is SMDC - Space and Missile Defense Command - Huntsville, AL. The sub contractor is SKYSAT, we are a sub to SKYSAT. The project is an airship to set at 65,000 ft. Electric motors direct the airship. Run a search under Hale D airship. We did work in the 1990s for SKYSAT for high altitude airships along with Platforms International for thier high altitude aircraft and for Israeli Aircraft Industries and Silver Arrow, although the later two were for gas driven drones.
First time I ever heard that something was wrong with refusing to brag. Further, just because you send out a press release does not mean it gets printed. Still further, press releases take time to make it into print. This customer just happens to be way up on the curve. No press releases have been sent out.
These motors are in effect a hub motor. The internals are the same as used on the scooters. The controllers are the same. The housing and prop mount are obviously different. The stator is different in that it has plumbing to reflect the significant way below zero temps at 65,000 ft. and the lack of air density for heat transfer. The controllers are liquid cooled to reflect the absence of cooling air density at such altitudes. The demo units use fixed pitch props. The end units will use variable pitch. Two versions are in demo. One based on our 10 Kw scooter motor, and one based on our 20 Kw scooter motor.
As you may note I am prone to say, put up your betting money and come on by to the airport. The motor test stand for motors with propellers is setting in my yard.
DH Zehrbach
Z Electric Vehicle
Agreed, and a very reasonable point. But if the bike doesn't have the range needed then it's a moot point. Many people reading these forums are more interested in range and speed than efficiency alone. I find those most interested in efficiency are those that produce high-speed e-bikes. Your bike has the range you want for it and the speed capabilities you want for it. But comparing Wh/mile alone on completely different runs is not a reasonable comparison. So, of course I pointed out the differences. I wasn't the only one to do so - 3 others also commented.
I posted data in a CuMoCo themed forum giving CuMoCo data and asking for other data. Yes, I think our bike is good. Not sure why this is a bad thing?
You then posted in that thread with other data - as had Mik previously (with data from Zero). So, like I thanked Mik, I thanked you. I'm not sure where the animosity springs from? As you point out - CuMoCo is one of the very few to share this sort of information. You collected that info yourself - you didn't get it from ZEV. And if you do get it from ZEV make sure they give some form of speed/terrain breakdown as well. (yes, as Mik already pointed out, I should have given a terrain analysis as well).
It's not "the worst [your] bike could do against a C130" for all the reasons you and others go on to state about how it is very hard to compare efficiencies of two bikes.
Then, why do you keep making it a competition? I simply responded politely to your posts with more detail. If you had put the main bulk of data that you collected in this thread and not in the C130 based thread I'd have an easier time believing you yourself weren't "boasting". I call it different points of view - you call it boasting.
Did you miss this line in my post: However, I have no doubt that it [your bike] is more efficient - simply because it weighs less. ? Sorry I didn't state that my weight is 155lbs and I'm 5'7" tall. Not that dissimilar to you - which is why I probably forgot to mention it. Aside from forgetting rider weight - which other wrong numbers did I use? ZEV says your bike weighs 340lbs and has a 3.48kWh pack (http://www.zelectricvehicle.com/17.html).
Threads often go off course and talk about different things. I guess the take-away from my point is that (a) such an accurate number is misleading & (b) efficiency quoted by itself is not very useful. Maybe I should have just posted that - but I chose to post more.
I sense a strong feeling of animosity from you - and I don't really know why. Is it really there - or do I have too thin a skin? If it is there - then why?
You bought a ZEV-6100. Good for you. You're very happy with it. Good for you. I sold many X-Tremes before I started CuMoCo and after the initial issues were resolved most customers were very happy with their bikes. I have a Vectrix and I'm not satisfied with it - however there are many very satisfied Vectrix owners out there. This is all good news for the EV market.
You posted that your bike was 45% more efficient than a C130 - I disagreed and you responded in this thread (not the original) where you start getting "snide" with me.
Three others also disagreed (1 C124 owner, 1 Vectrix owner and 1 other) - all had a reasonable point of view. And if you go to that thread now you'll see we've swung off in yet another direction. At the end of the day we all have a position. You as a ZEV owner have yours and I as a founder of CuMoCo have mine (though I'm no longer the owner). As long as we clearly state our backgrounds (which we did) I don't think it's unreasonable to post.
Please, though, no more snide comments about where I should spend my time. It's my time. If I were to respond to those parts of your post it will really just devolve into name-calling. I assume neither of us want that?
Enjoy your EV Maxi-Scooter. I'm glad that you've got an EV Maxi-Scooter you like.
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Lockheed and its sub-contractors do not typically build their aircraft using motors or controllers manufactured from non-mil-spec made-in-China components supplied by obscure e-scooter companies with 1 or 2 employees operating out of obscure countryside airport hangers. An electric hub motor and controller are child's play for a company such as LockheedMartin that makes cruise missles. When they need a hub motor or a controller, they typically design it themselves and have it built by an established supplier that has passed innumerable quality standards.
Rhalliburton, I flagged your post as offensive. You seem to have a personal beef with Zehrbach as a person versus with his company or products. I see you have 8pts, and I know of three of those posts were short personal attacks against his character. I don't want this type of trash in my threads. Please take your personal issues up with Zehrbach offline thru PMs.
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
jdh2550_1,
Please stop wasting my time responding to your off point comments. But once again I will address you points. But please lets move on. I probably shouldn't have compared a production bike to a non-production bike. My Bad.
This thread is about an awesome, modified production bike not about a non-production bike with know defects. You yourself said in your July 17th post that you were back at square one on the motor design, were testing a larger motor, and had three more options if that failed. So how can you be talking smack about the range on a bike that is being redesigned and the drive train doesn't even exist yet?
Thank you for agreeing with me. Efficiency was the point of my post, and I feel it is very important. You keep bringing up range in a last ditch effort to raise your non-production product above the competition. But you forget ZEV's awesome looking, full production Trail 7100 (now with a 9200w option) already beats the C130 in battery voltage, pack size, speed, and range. So your whole argument is moot.
http://zelectricvehicle.com/18.html
John, why don't you give us all a good chuckle, and send a C130 to ZEV's facility in PA and do a face-to-face range test against his Trail 7100 with the new Gen IV motor. He has already made the offer to you and by your reply it seems that you are willing to put up a bike. I thought it was a generous offer on ZEV's part to waste their time comparing their bike against a non-production product. Take him up on it. I'm sure a local reporter would be happy to post the independent results.
John I have no idea what you are rambling about here, I did give terrain detail, but if you are suggesting that the trip data I posted wasn't my own worse-case data that I have gathered to date, then you are starting to piss me off. I expect an apology on this statement.
Yes, John you have taken this thread off course; the point was efficiency is key! Yes, please post less, much less, and stop wasting my time; in fact, why don't you refrain from posting in my threads all together until you have a production bike. I will do my best not to mention your pre-production efforts again.
John, as you requested, I am not going to comment on how much time you spend in this forum during the work week, and I am not going to comment on how thin or thick your skin is. There is no animosity coming from me; although your continued responses, and the amount of my time it's wasting is becoming irritating. What you might be picking up on though is the level of frustration on your progress and a little pity (your July 17th post left the question in my mind on how long it will take for CUMOCO to pull this off). See - if you were in production, then I could use that, maybe, to get ZEV to step up their game on their instrumentation. They have a excellent bike platform, I would just like to see another option added.
I have said over and over that I have a great ZEV bike; that it meets all the requirements that I bought it for. I have also said that I have a modified bike being that I have installed a Cycle Analyst computer which provides all the data I could possibly want on an e-scooter and does it extremely well. The ZEV bike is amazing from the standpoint of drive train and ride. But I feel that the best battery gauge is an AH and/or WH meter, and I would like to see their bikes include one. Zehrbach and I have been going round and round on this issue. He is very polite, and he has responded that they are looking into some enhancements but currently their focus is on ramping up production to meet overseas demand. In the meantime, I have been wondering how I might, as an individual bike owner, provide some third-party value-added services for ZEV bike owners.
But my posts are having a desired effect just the same. Just this week, a forum member asked if they could get ZEV to mount a CA on his bike. A few more requests and maybe, just maybe, I might get my way. : )
This is an exciting time. Just north of me in Fort Collins, a member is getting a 7100 alpine. Slower max speed than the standard 7100 but much higher torque. I can't wait to check it out. And just south in Denver, a man is looking at the awesomely powerful 7100 w/9200w option Trail bike. That bike is so sweet!
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
You can declare your undying love for your ZEV without any comment on other brands at all. Your posts have been a blatant attack on Current Motors. Ride your Zev, enjoy the heck out of it. Push it to no end. But the attack on Current Motors is just juvenile. What next, your Chevy is better than anyone else's mopar or Ford?
Did I point a gun at your head and insist you read them and then type out yet another snide response?
If you want "snide John" (because you insist on being snide yourself) then I can be much less verbose: you did a BS test and posted those BS results in a forum where they were sure to provoke more response than if you'd posted them here. At which point 4 other folks called your tests for the "BS" that they were. You came back to this thread to lick your wounds. Sure, after making your mistake you start adding additional commentary over here to suggest that you knew it was a poor test - but not in your original post
As for giving you a chuckle - I've said it before, and I'll say it again: We will happily provide a bike to an independent 3rd party tester to do comparisons with other bikes. See this thread: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/10748-uncertainty-scootermc-ev-market-put-or-shut. I don't see any other manufacturer's response on that thread. Why on earth should I waste my time and money to send a bike to a competitors site for evaluation? How naive is that??
Yes, we should move on. But feel free to have the last word if you want. BTW, if you are so darn picky about "off-thread comments" then why did you post efficiency numbers in a thread entitled "Detailed Range Data"???? And if your time is too valuable to read and respond - then don't.
But if you continue to pour gasoline on the fire then look at my history on this board and you can expect me to respond in kind.
Now, after this amusing distraction, back to work...
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
TO rehalliburton
You seem to have a decidely weird opinion and are obviously confused. First you erroneously refer to Lockheed. No where in my post did I refer to working for Lockheed. I referred to working for a completely different company. Secondly, you ae making some rather big assumptions that you have decreed as fact. You have no knowledge as to where the motors assembled for the airships are assembled or if they are to mill spec or not. But yet you declare them not to be non mill spec and made in China. Your statement is false. You falsely state that ZEV is only a 2 person operation operating out of an obscure airport. You nor anyone who writes on this site has any knowledge of how many employees this operation has or where they operate. Yet you do not hesitate to make such a claim and to state it as fact. This despite the fact that even you state "typically", not always.
As stated before, this group has a long history in drones and high altitude work both in gas and electric documented by contracts and payments.
Now, you have decreed me to be a liar and declared false and or fraudulent information to be fact. You know my name as I sign my posts. You hide behind a non de plume. So I am calling you out. You are so adament that you are correct, then lets cut to the chase. Declare your name and address on this site. Put up $10,000. I will do the same. Then I show you the contracts and the documents. You show me any evidence that shows they are not correct. If I have the contracts and the track record of making the parts within our group I take your $10,000. Fair enough?
Help,
my thread is being highjacked. : (
The purpose of bringing up efficiency was to do a rough estimate against another bike just to share with other members how efficient and powerful these ZEV motors are. I picked the C130 because the data was there and it closely matched a nasty trip I take in avg speed and type of driving (highway + urban). A member might only look at the amps used on the ZEV's and not properly deduce how powerful the motors are for the amps used. It was just an attempt to help members understand the power of the ZEV bikes.
How can I attack something that doesn't exist in final form, that is evolving as we speak. If anything, any comments at this point might help make it a better final product. It is clear the C130 production bike will have a much different drive-train.
Enough of this madness.
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
Zehrbach,
Please take up your beef with Rhalliburton off-line thru PMs.
Thank you
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
TO; LEFTIEBIKER
Your 5000 ZEV does not have lead acid battery as you state. There is no acid in the battery. They are a caustic gel battery, so there is no sulfate issues.
ZEV is a manufacturer and is assigned the WMI (World Manufacturer's Identy VIN number sequence 1Z9. We state on our website that we manufacturer operating under the WMI. Please do not be confused by our stating we assemble as opposed to using the words manufacture. They can be interchanged in my mind.
We do use plastic bodywork that we buy from suppliers that in many cases has the same appearance as some parts on some China bikes. This differs mainly in how it mounts and or interconnects to other parts. The motors are our own design and have ZEV on the sides of the motor cast into it. We assemble the motors and controlers in Pa. Our frames have a different design than the Chinese primarily in wheelbase (longer), wall thickness (thicker), gusseting, battery box size is far bigger as we can accommodate up to 40 of the 40 ah cells or 32 of the 60 Ah cells. The frame has sub assembly sections that bolt on for other battery issues. We use a BMS on all lithium bikes. The hand controls are the same as the Kawsaki Concours. Our brakes are much bigger OD for more swept area than the Chinese. We have an 850 lb gross weight that is radically above anything else out there that we know of as a result of the frame design. Most bikes if you figure the gross less the curb weight cannot carry a 2nd passenger. In your case, I am not aware of anyone else that makes a 72 volt lead battery bike. Everyone else stops at 60 V to the best of my knowledge.
The freight company sent us an insurance claim form this morning for the damage that they did to your bike in shipping and an authorization to start the repair work on it. We will be pushing to get it back to you in perfect condiction as fast as possible. Thank you for your order.
DH Zehrbach
ZEV
Now that's a very worthwhile purpose. However, with the data you give I think we need to look at the motor & controller in combination (because I don't think there's a way to separate them in the data that you took?). Nothing wrong at all with that as ZEV uses their own proprietary controller as well as their own motor.
The two bikes you compared data with were the C130 and the VX-1 (NiMH version)
- ZEV - uses proprietary hub motor oil-filled for cooling; uses proprietary controller - I believe with a 100A controller?
- CMC - uses hub motor; uses KBL 400A controllers - controller calibration is set so that they actually producing a peak of about 180A
- Vectrix - uses a co-axially mounted high rpm motor with a planetary reduction gear; uses a proprietary controller (I believe with field weakening to achieve a higher top speed)
One way to compare efficiencies would be to agree on a load weight (we could say 200lbs and then we'd each carry whatever extra ballast to bring rider+ballast to 200lbs). Then find a reasonably flat road and do speed runs in both directions at set speeds. Gather the Wh/Mile during the constant speed section. By doing a run in both directions we can attempt to cancel out grade and wind effects. We could do that test at 30, 40, 50 & 60. This test would require data logging because we need to look at sections of data and not the whole trip.
If you want to do this test I'd be happy to provide data for a C130 (it might not be the "final" version and calibration so the numbers would need to be read with that in mind). If there's a VX owner out there with a bike instrumented to take and log this data then that would be fantastic to add to the mix.
Just let me know if you'd like to do the test and when you can have the data.
p.s. I just realized that I assumed we're talking about measuring voltage and amps at the battery pack. Not the values on the motor side of the controller? (which is much more tricky to do)
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
John,
I like your idea. Just not sure how to implement that with a CA. It only gives the WH/Mile for the trip. But I like where you are going. So, let me think about that.
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
My reference to Lockheed is not erroneous - you instructed me in a previous post in this thread to run an internet search on the term "Hale D". I did. It's a lighter-than-air solar-powered airship made by Lockheed. Correct or incorrect? I understand that you say the work your company did on the Hale D motors/controllers was for a sub-contractor on the project, but the bottom-line is that you claim your motors and controllers are being used on that ship - which says "Lockheed" on it. By making this claim, you are creating a connection between the motors/controllers on ZEV scooters and the motors/controllers that power the Lockheed Hale D. IBScootn made this connection explicitly, presumably based on what he had been told by you. This would tend to make people think ZEV motors and controllers are special and uniquely well-designed and manufactured. If the claim is true, it benefits the ZEV brand. The question is, is it true or not? I'm skeptical.
As for the childish $10K challenge - hey, man, it's not me who has to put up or shut up. You made the claim in the 1st place, and I'm just saying I doubt it. I'm not going to pay you to dispel my doubts.
To IBScootn - if you offer yourself up as a shill for a company and, perhaps in an effort to please Mr. Zehrbach, heap effusive praise on their products and disparage competitive products, you open yourself up for these types of controversies. You also lose all credibility with those who might otherwise take your riding experiences and performance data seriously. Re-read through your posts - quite frequently what you write makes you sound like a parrot for their (rather hubristic) claims and an outlet for Mr. Zehrbach's seemingly obsessive need to have ZEV compared favorably with other bikes out there.
(IBScootn - I apologize in advance - but this Hale D stuff is way too much fun to read):
OK, call me a sucker if you like (you won't be the first!) - but I googled "Hale D". Here's the first result:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/07/28/lockheed-martins-hale-d-airship-learns-to-fly-makes-a-crash-la/
It looks like the first flight wasn't exactly successful: "Lockheed Martin's HALE-D airship learns to fly, makes a crash landing"
Oops. I hope it wasn't the "unique propulsion system" that was the cause - or someone might coming looking for a refund! ;-)
(Hey, sorry..., just a joke, OK? Just like IBScootn I think discussing scooter efficiency is probably better suited to this thread and board than discussing "blimps")
John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.
Every reference I see aside from the battery manufacturer (and your site) refers to them as lead acid batteries with silica added to the electrolyte. The full model name for my bike is the "5000LA" and the sales description at the dealer I bought it from refers to it having "lead acid/silicone" batteries. Didn't your site used to mention "lead acid" as well? Anyway, I think we are in a semantic gray area here. If the Greensaver batteries prove to be even just as good as the 10 year old, still-usable old AGM batteries in my old Lepton scooter I'll be very pleased. I'm really hoping that the 18 mile range I got on my first real ride (having to push the bike the last block) was due to a damaged motor.
I'm not saying that you aren't making some parts or doing the assembly work. When I talk about a "US Manufacturer" I'm talking about the kinds of definitions used by the FTC, at http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus03-complying-made-usa-standard. That site is confusing, but I seem to remember that at least 90% of the parts have to be US-made. Again, we are into semantics here: you are claiming, correctly I assume, that you are a US-based manufacturer. I'm claiming, and your "assembled in USA" listings seem to confirm, that most of the actual components are made outside the US, mainly in China, and then assembled here. That's fine - I buy US-assembled products in preference to others. I just don't believe that "Assembled in USA" equates to "Made in USA".
-
I appreciate your fixing it, although I was hoping to get it back before Fall. When I sent the bike back I was told by the dealer (not by you) that you could do a "three day turnaround" in getting it fixed and shipped back. I hope the claim gets processed faster than most insurance claims...
Rhalliburton, please respect my request to take your beef with Zehrbach offline as I have also asked him to do. It really isn't that hard to do; it might just take a little more willpower.
As for your disparate attempt to lump me in with your beef; if your secret passion is becoming a private eye and finding shills; you should stick to your day job.
What part of these statements did you not understand:
What shill would place their company in a awkward position. If that still sounds like a ZEV shill, then I can't help you.
Am I guilty of being an excited owner of a scooter; guilty as charged. For some years, I have wanted an EV. I really wanted a narrow-track EV vehicle for my third garage bay; too much other stuff in there to put a E-car or even an E-Can Am trike. I had hopes that Commuter Cars' Tango would take off, and I could afford one of their lower priced models, but that model still hasn't been produced. I joined the Denver Electric Vehicle Council group and started looking at posts in various forums like this one. I settled on this forum as it has some very knowledgeable members. I liked the Vectrix but there was no way I was going to buy something with Ni-MH batts (BTW, for Colorado members, a dealer north of me has a beautiful blue Vx-1 '08 they are trying to off-load). So, I read the posts here and it seemed that people were buying Vx-1s, EVTs, EVDs, XMs. I test rode the EVD and it was gutless. I had been checking out the prices of the XMs at scootercatalog.com and they seemed reasonable. I had beers with XMs owner and he said to wait until Spring/Summer of '11 to buy as the BMS would be greatly improved (how cool is that for an owner to tell you to postpone your purchase). But, I wanted to buy in '10, so I started looking for a discounted XM deciding that I could add the BMS myself. While looking for the cheapest XM-5000Li, I stumbled across ZEV. I don't understand why I didn't read anything here on it, it would have saved me a lot of time. I liked the ZEV story and bought the bike. I was hoping that I would like a scooter; really wanted a e-motorcycle, but it has turned out great for me. This year, I have only put 800 miles on my car; or put another way, I make ever excuse to ride my scooter.
I am really tired/frustrated of not seeing any other e-scooters on the road in my area. Especially when Colorado has the best tax incentives in the country (which are being reduced next year, if not removed all together because of the economy). You just want to scream "Wake Up!!!" So, I am on a personal crusade to try to educate Coloradoans that they can get a fun, reliable bike at an amazing price. This year, of the US made bikes, the only bikes I know and feel comfortable recommending is the ZEVs 6100 & 7100. So, I can see how you could see my posts as one-sided. But at the same time, isn't the purpose of this site to help others find great e-bikes, share our experiences with our bikes, and to provide help to others in need of assistance with their bikes?
So far my posts are being productive, and I hope they will help members of this forum as well as people doing online searches.
We can't get more e-scooters on the road fast enough. One of my concerns this year, is that the US economy is slipping further down the drain into a second recession or worse. Some people are saying it won't happen until 2012/13. But the writing on the wall isn't pretty. So I feel a time pressure regarding my crusade. If we as a group, aren't pushing people to buy now, conditions might worsen so bad that others won't have the choices we enjoy. So please people, no matter what EV you are riding, get more people involved. I want to see more e-scooters on the road!
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
OK, OK, this is my last post in this thread - unless you or the ZEV people start claiming that the same propulsion system as you have in your ZEV 6100 also powers the NASA Mars Science Laboratory rover or something similarly far-fetched.
I've felt the same frustration as you, IB, for a lot longer. It was terrible to watch the EV industry start to blossom st the turn of the century, only to be killed virtually dead by the 2001 recession. Oxygen made a good, if overpriced, scooter and they had a second generation of vehicles ready that were much faster and could carry cargo... Anyway, don't mistake my nitpicking for a desire to see anyone fail at this - especially the manufacturer I'll be depending on for warranty support!
As Fall starts and the trees are starting to change colors, I look back on this season of riding 2700 trouble free miles on my ZEV 6100. It has been a blast, and I'm looking forward to getting in as much riding in as I can before the bitter cold sets in. To that end, I've bought a warm one-piece riding suit, heated gloves, neck warmer and winter boots; I'm not going to give into hanging up my helmet for the season easily.
But when it does become apparent that I will have to hang up the helmet for a week or more, I plan to:
Strip the bike down and check frame welds.
Double check all electrical connections.
Install the TNC throttle.
Embed the charger into the bike.
Add a switchable cable into the under seat storage area for a second battery pack source.
Convert my controller to oil-cooled for even greater efficiency. (as is, I haven't seen any other maxi-scooters come close to the WH/mile I'm getting)
As for promoting e-scooters as real transportation, I have been riding as much as possible in the fast lane around town. A lot of people around here still think scooters belong hugging the bike lanes. It blows their minds when they see you passing them in the fast lane. Yesterday a driver pulled along side of me and asked what I had in that bike - a Hemi? I just smilled and told him - just a lot of electricity; you should have seen the shock in his face - priceless.
If you have a fast bike like a higher-end ZEV or a Vx-1, show off the speed now and then. Help spread the word that these bikes are real transportation options and not bicycle-lane hugging toys.
Happy riding,
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
IBSCOOTIN, I hope you can keep us up to date on the winter upgrades !!! The age of EV scooters is upon us (especially with ZEV company) but, I believe that a few things have to be perfected before it can really explode on the market !! The first company to handle these things correctly will be the APPLE of the EV world!
1)Next Gen LiFePo4 battery tech- quicker recharge, more storage/range(200+m/charge range), cooler temps.(ZEV is the first to do this). Some great things are on the horizon with Titanium and other next gen technology !!!
2)Dependable HD electrical wiring & Ease of electrical testing and repair - ZEV seems to have solved this!!
3)Upgraded Hubmotors and controllers - More power, better cooling & endurance(longer life) - ZEV is doing this! 4)A 12V power port for extra equipment ( e.i. - radio, fuzz buster, air pump, phone charger, etc.).
5)A better fairing(w/full windshield) that is alittle bit higher and protects the driver on long trips.
6)A Ultralight weight aluminum pull-behind cargo(flat bed) trailer for pulling everything from groceries to furniture, along with being a platform for for adding extra batt packs and/or a small generator.
7)A diode protected switch for adding 2 + extra batt packs( on the bike or onto a pull-behind trailer)to add range for longer trips ( which is not needed all the time and adds to much weight and cuts aerodynamics).
8)A ultralight weight pop-up camper module that can be attached to the pull-behind trailer for long trips.
9)Design a small ultra light generator that could be put on a trailer and could recharge the batt packs while on the road or maybe turn the scooter into a hybrid with the trailer and run the scooter directly off the generator(while recharging the batteries).
10)Electrical trailer wiring installed at the factory to handle the trailer lighting and extra braking assist.
11)Extra high powered LED headlights !!! ZEV has this on some models - I think !!!
The EV scooters need longer range but, do not need all the added weight and aerodynamic ineffectiences all time so, I believe we need to design a serial hybrid generator(with switches) that can be easilly added to the scooter on a pull-behind trailer and with easy plug ins for the power, braking and lights. The generator and extra batt packs could be added to the tongue of the trailer, allowing for the camper module.
Winter tires/Tyres??
The bike shipped with Cheng Shin 130/60-13 tires that have performed great this year on wet or dry roads. The only time the tires have slipped have been when traveling across a small about of sprinkler/irrigation runoff (odd I would think the runoff would remove any oil accumulation, but maybe the tires pick up some oil from the roadway).
But with winter approaching, I'm wondering if I can get by with these tires in 30-40F weather, or should I mount winter tires. I don't expect to ride in the snow, as here in Denver it is uncommon for snow to stay on the roadway for more than two days (at this elevation and with the amount of sunshine we get, the snow just evaporates away).
What are some of the better winter tires in this size and would it be worth the hassle to swap out the summer tires?
Thanks,
Motorcycles: 2011 ZEV Trail 7100, 84V, 60AH, 60+mph, Cycle Analyst, TNC throttle, modified charger. 2013 Kymco GT300i
Bicycles: 2017 Sondors Thin
Cars: 2016 Leaf SV, 30KWH pack. 2007 CR-V
Solar array: 5KW. Cost per lifetime KWH produced $0.073
Bi
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