New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

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hyperob
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New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hello Everyone,

I've been monitoring this forum for about a month now while I was deciding which E-Bike to purchase for my short commute. Thanks to members like Zerogas, MilleyM, Gushar, and ArcticFox (sorry I didn't buy from you but I had credits from Ebay that ended up being to big a savings to pass up)it made my decision that much easier (I was torn between a QElectric Milan and the XB-600.) The information provided on this forum was invaluable as I could not find any real world stories or reviews of the 600 on line. I was shocked at how little info is available other than the stock specs on dealer websites. The bad wrap on X-Treme customer service worried me but it appeared, to me at least, to be on the lower priced models that the company offers (sorry to hear about your troubles AztecFembone.) The only other info that I could dig up was on the website I linked to below. Unfortunatley its for the XB-500 I hope to do a similar one for the 600 since you can't find a single comprehensive review anywhere on the web.

Anyway, I hope to become a contributing member to this forum going forward.

As for my brief experience with the bike, I am a very satisfied customer. The bike performs as advertised and is better constructed than I would have thought or led to believe in some posts. Overall I would give it an 8.5 on the quality/cost ratio.

I ordered my bike on June 20th and it arrived on the 27th. I was fearing the shipping damage everyone talks about but the box was unblemished and so was the scooter (it did have some factory handling marks but nothing serious). This was a big relief.

The assembly instructions are somewhat lacking as is the rest of the manual (there are at least two different tire inflation reccomendations in the version I received) but you can get through it well enough if you don't take it too literally and go with the spirit of the suspect Chinese to English translation. It took me about 2 hours to uncrate and assemble ( I am only so-so mechanically). There was enough charge in the batteries to take it for a spin when I was done.

Zerogas wasn't kidding. These things suck going up hill. Yeah, yeah I know they do get you up the hill but its painful. Not just any hill or incline but even a glorified speed bump and the bike slows down to 10mph. I thought it was going to die on me.

The only thing worse than going slow up the hills is the turn signal screech that makes you want to poke your eardrums out. Its like backing up a dump truck when you pull up at an intersection. It literally makes me think twice about turning. WOW! The looks you get are priceless. Its really a shame because the bike is so silent when you ride and then becomes some kind of shrew when you use the blinker.

The last issue I found was that the mirrors move evertime you hit a bump. You end looking at yourself rather than the traffic behind you. Its great for the narcissist in me but disconcerting to say the least (for a variety of reasons).

Having read most of the posts on this forum this is how I solved my issues with the bike.

1) I ordered a spare controller from X-Treme (arrived in two days) and promptly did the shunt mod. I replaced the original controller (keeping it as a spare in case I boomed the new one) and was rewarded with immediate pleasure. 0 to 20mph in 2-3 seconds and the ability to climb and accelerate up even moderately steep hills at up to 20mph. Sweet. I haven't verified the range on the bike yet because I've been enjoying riding around the neighborhood to much to take it on a long trip. Gushar I know you've posted a lot of good questions regarding this mod but I don't know if you've actually done it yet. You should. It is pretty easy and the reward is well worth the $65 dollars for the spare controller and the 2 hours of your time to do it. The difference is almost freaky.

2) Using the diagram that MilleyM(I wonder if he ever got his electrical problem sorted out?)so graciously posted I traced back the turn signal switch and pried it open and removed the tiny offensive speaker soldered to the little circuit board(ahhhhh Silence....) I now have turn signals but no offending sound. This too was super easy to do and took less than a half hour to do.

3) The only problem left is the mirrors. I am all ears if anyone has any suggestions. I am about to take and hot glue gun and cement these things into position unless anyone has any better ideas.

4) I took off most of the silly stickers on the bike. Come on X-Treme it only goes 20mph. Are flame stickers really necessary or warranted?

Overall, I am so happy with this bike that it has prompted me to join a forum (something I've never done in 44 years) and share my experiences as a new member of the EV family.

So again, thanks to all on this forum who have posted so much useful information and shared their experiences for people like me who are just getting into this whole EV thing.

Cheers and Happy Riding!

hyperob

P.S. Gushar: Yes the seat is loose unless you sit on it. (I don't think anyone ever answered your question)and the grey wires don't do anything.

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chas_stevenson
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

hyperob,

First, welcome to the forum, and thanks for your first of many excellent posts. I'm a bike guy myself but it appears you have really done your homework and now have an exceptional scooter you are very happy with. I am sure we are all waiting to hear how you your new green machine and as always the forum will be helpful if you run into any problems. I am curious if you have any plans in the future to upgrade the batteries. I think a scooter like yours could be an even better green machine with lithium.

Good riding,
Grandpa Chas S.

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hi Chas_stevenson,

Thanks for the welcome. I don't plan on doing the 60volt mod as of yet. I like the storage under the seat too much but I am studying converting to LI batteries as this pack wears out its welcome. I figure perhaps the prices for these batteries will drop next year (hopefully) since the new models are all going that way.

Cheers

gushar
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey, glad you took the "leap." I tried to tell you as much as I could...from my riding mine for a year now. No, I haven't done the mod yet. I've been waiting because even though I would really like that additional power...(1) I wanted to see if it really shortened motor life, or had any other adverse affects and (2) I'm really interested in the new 700li and thought if I purchased that I would want to sell the xb600. Now, you'd think that the mod would make the 600 more sellable...but then I'd want to be honest with any buyer and it might turn some off if I told them I had "modified" something relating to the power...which "could" shorten the lifespan of the motor, controller, or eventually burn something else out. So, that's the only reason I haven't done it. Sure wish though you had taken a pic of your coathanger shunt...just so we'd have another reference pic to go by. I may not buy a 700li...and if not I don't think I can wait much longer to get that power up!:-)

Regarding the mirrors. Are they loose at the base...which has a nut to tighen them under the rubber...or is it where the arm goes into the mirror case. I've looked at the case and it seems to me that the gray piece of plastic might just "snap" off the back...which would expose I'm sure where the arm is connected there. And, if it's like other mirrors I've went into...there will be some sort of spring and nut threaded on to hold the spring at a certain tension. That tension is adjustable by just tightening the nut which compresses the spring tension more. At least that's the way it was on the set of mirrors on a previous scoot I had. But, on that one you had to "pop" the actual glass mirror out from the front...and I cracked one of them trying to do it. But hopefully these mirrors have what appears to be a separate piece of plastic (the gray/silver) part on the back...which can be snapped/popped off to make an adjustment. Mine have stayed pretty good...but they do move over time so I've been looking at that myself.

Definitely stay with us here! You'll be glad you did. I'm not a "forum" person either and this is really the only forum I read and contribute to as well. But, I think it's a great symbiotic relationship here...getting help/product info...giving help/product info...and that way we can have the best experience with these electric scoots that most everyone in our "immediate" world doesn't even know exist!

So, again glad you made the purchase...and welcome to our world!

Gushar

Gus

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey Gushar,

Thanks for the reply and the thoughts on the mirrors. I will check tonight after work and see what I can do.

Regarding the shunt, I may go ahead and do it to the backup controller as well so if I do I will certainly document the whole procedure. Its actually quite simple (I'm not an electrical guy). I can certainly understand about the resell value of a "moded" scooter but you could purchase a second controller as I did and just replace before you sell or give the person the choice.

I think the 700li is nice but it looks to me like its getting pretty big for a 20mph scooter. Most of the cost is LI battery pack. I think $1700 is a little pricey for an e-bike unless you just plain love them and don't care what the cost is. I plan on modding to an LI pack next year on the 600. That will have to do for me instead of upgrading to a 700li.

I will also post a picture of the "turn signal speaker" and how to take care of that annoying sound if anyone cares to know how to do it.

Thanks again for the welcome.

AztecFemBone
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

I set my mirrors in place with plumber's pipe tape on the threads.

And my flame stickers are long gone, replaced with various San Diego State stickers. :D

gushar
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey...here's another thought on the mod. One other reason I've hesitated is that using more power (amps) must pull the batteries down faster...lowering range. Now, I know the range is accurate at 30 miles cause I checked it...once. I got like 29.2 miles and creeped back into my driveway. However, the battery gurus on here suggest that the batteries will last a whole lot longer if you don't take them down so near full discharge. That's really bad on them. Also, it's recommended that you don't pull the charge down beyond 50%...at least most of the time. Therefore, I have very unscientifically determined that to be...from checking voltage at various points... about half the maximum...or approximately 15 miles. Most of my rides are less than 10...so that's not a problem for me. However, if after the mod the range decreases much...less say to approximately 20 miles...then half of that is 10 miles. I'd still be safe with that...but then I'd always be kind of hesitant if I wanted to ride beyond that.

But on the other hand...what's alittle battery life in trade for some real ZIP! :-)

Might be something to be aware of though!

Guahar

Gus

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

It stands to reason that more amps to the motor will pull the batteries down faster. Like I said I haven't had the chance to drive it a long distance yet (at least 15 miles )to see if it will make it but I might just do that. I might have to keep the cell phone handy to call my wife for a pickup if I run out of juice but I will certainly test it. My commute is only a few miles each way so I never really run down the batteries and charge overnight so I never really push the batteries to the extreme.

I will tell you that having the ZIP does make me feel safer on the bike. It is more responsive and really helps in traffic. For me the trade-off is beneficial because being in L.A. you have to keep your head on a swivel. Drivers here will run you over and then sue you cause you got in their way......:)

bocabikeguy
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

We are really talking about two different mods here.

The first mod is to reduce the resistance of the shunt so that the controller demands more current. This mod will definitely reduce your range.

The second mod is to add a fifth battery. BocaBike's Law, which has held true for the last 10 years, states that, "adding an additional battery in series will make your bike go faster, but the range will remain about the same".

BocaBike's law has been argued in the newsgroups extensively for years. But every real-world test of BocaBike's Law has shown that BocaBike's Law holds true.

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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

I've read the thread on that shunt mod but it makes absolutely no sense to me. Step-by-step photodocumented instructions for a poor girl? ;)

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey Aztec,

I only understand a little of it myself but you really don't need to. All you need are the instructions. It works and its fairly simple to do. Like I posted earlier to Gushar, I will do it to my spare controller and will document the whole thing so you can see how it is done. I don't think the xb-500 controller is the same as the 600 but it will have the same basic components including the shunt resistor.

I will try to get this done next week. If you don't mind losing some range it really does make the XB a whole lot more fun to ride.

Cheers.

gushar
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

BocaBike I wondered about that. Simply adding another battery...bumping up the voltage from 48-60 gives faster speed...enough to make a difference? Which mod would give the most increase in speed you think? But then apparently that ZIP these guys are talking about...quick acceleration...comes from the shunt mod only.

And Aztec just remember when HypeRob posts the doc on the shunt mod... That the controller (brain) through it's circuit (arteries) allows only so much power (energy) to the motor (body). When an extra piece of metal/shunt (artery) is added then alot more power (energy) can get to the motor (body). And the old body can run the 500 yard dash alot faster!;-)

Gushar

Gus

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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hyperob, that would be awesome! Range is not an issue for me because I'm only riding around my neighborhood. Owing to pretty big hills in the area, no nonhill round trip is more than 6 miles. With added hill power, however, it might actually expand my range.

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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Congrats and welcome, Hyperob! I'm glad to hear you successfully modded your scoot. I would seriously recommend going 60v, you've already done the hard part when you modded your controller. :) It's worth it. My next project is to put an xm 3000 hub motor on my xb 600 and go for 50 mph :D I look forward to trading posts with you as I have Milleym, Gushar and andrew, and everyone else. Welcome again!

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey Zerogas,

Thanks for the Welcome but seriously, stop taking the crazy pills -- 50mph on a XB-600?!???! ;) You are the Chuck Yaeger of the scoot world.....Defenitely The Right Stuff.

I will think about the 60v but the idea of losing cargo space and having to use two chargers is just unapealing right now. Perhaps if I could find a charger that would charge all five batteries at once in that same way the stock one does, then I might be persuaded....hmmm..You sir are a very bad influence. :)

hyperob

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Gushar,

It was my understanding from all the posts that the 60volt mod gives you more top end speed but not necessarily acceleration or increased range. From what I could tell from Zerogas he didn't pick up added range. I think you would have to go to LI batteries for that. I am sure others with more experience can probably chime in. The shunt mod gave lickety split acceleration and maybe 1 or 2mph on the top end at most.What I was really looking for in doing the shunt mod was a more full bodied 20mph experience, which is exactly what I got. I couldn't ask for more but speed does thrill doesn't it?

I am not sure I want to go 60volt because I still would like to obey the regulations in California as it pertains to E-Bikes. I did a lot of research with the local Glendale police department and the California DMV. They all told me as long as I stay "close" to 20 I wouldn't have a problem but if I went "30" or more than I would have problems. You could probably get away with it in more rural areas.

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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey guys,
You can get a 60v charger from www.x-tremescooters.com . Just order the one for the xm 3000. They all plug in the same. I just received a reply email from MountainChen in regards to my quest for a bigger motor!!!! My need for speed may soon be satisfied. YAY!!

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey Zerogas,

Your enthusiasm is infectious. I will take a look at that. So I would order and extra 20ah battery and the charger and I would be good to go?

As for your need for speed: There is always a bigger motor....;)

Happy 4th!

zerogas
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Yep! Mountainchen is going to make me a motor it seems. We are trading emails right now to see what will work best. I can't wait.

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey Zerogas,

I ordered the charger and an extra battery last night. Never drink and shop....not a good combination.

As for the wiring instructions, which one should I follow yours or MilleyM's? You had said that MilleyM's was the way to go but I haven't heard if he's solved his electrical issue and if its related to his shunt or battery set up.

I would like to do it where I could add the battery or take it out depending on my needs. If I need to carry more stuff take the battery out but if I want to ride like the wind put the battery in and use the 60V charger.

Suggestions?

P.S. Can't wait to hear about the motor mod you are going to do. One question. Aren't you worried about going 50mph on those tires (a little narrow and not the best quality) and the stress on the frame going that speed (welds and hitting bumps and potholes)? Or are those an non-issue?

hyperob

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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

You can get a 60v charger from www.x-tremescooters.com . Just order the one for the xm 3000.

A 4 amp charger is pushing it a bit for 20Ah SLA batteries. I would worry that it woulde reduce the service life of your batteries. 2.5 amp (which is C/8) is about the highest I would go. ecrazyman on eBay sells a good 60v 2 amp charger that is just about perfect for the XB-600.

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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Simply adding another battery...bumping up the voltage from 48-60 gives faster speed...enough to make a difference?

Yes. Speed is directly proportional to voltage. 5 batteries will make you go 25% faster than 4 batteries (5/4).

zerogas
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey Hyperob,
Glad to hear you're gonna add that 5th battery. :D You'll be glad of it. To answer your question... I'm not afraid to go 50mph. Even though 45mph will probably be a more likely top speed. Besides, just because I could go that fast doesn't mean I'll have to. It would just be handy for those times when cars are barrelling down on me at 50+mph. I could go 45mph (which is the speed limit most places around here) and not have to keep pulling over for these speed demons. Plus my commute is taking about 18 to 20 minutes right now because I have to keep pulling over, so I'd like to get it down to 10 minutes. 45mph would do that for me.

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey Bocaguy

Thanks for the info but I already placed the order. How much do you think it would reduce the service life and why....I thought I read somewhere that the charger should be about 25% of the rated ah on the battery. This is not the case?

More info would be appreciated.

Thanks.

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey Bocabikeguy,

One more question. You've got me thinking in waves now.....

Read your post on the addition of the relay before the fifth battery. Do you think that 60volts is that much strain on the dc/dc controller? I do want to make the ride safe and reliable as I upgrade to 60volts. If you could explain where the 48volts come from.(which wire and where from) I can kind of make out your schematic but there are some question marks in there and I am not sure of the exact procedure.

Again, thanks for the info and I am just trying to take this all in. I ordered the other 60volt charger as you suggested just to be on the safe side that it matches the current stock one for amperage.

I wont make any final decisions on which charger to use until I can get some more feedback from you and other users who may have some experience with using a 60volt charger on the xb600.

Thanks again

hyperob

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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Thanks for the info but I already placed the order. How much do you think it would reduce the service life and why....I thought I read somewhere that the charger should be about 25% of the rated ah on the battery. This is not the case?

You will be fine with the 4A charger. Just try to let the batteries cool a bit before charging if you used them hard in warm weather. If you had temperature feedback to the charger, you could safely charge at C/3. With no temperature feedback a C/8 smart charger is usually fine. In between, you should probably watch the temperature - not so much for danger of thermal runaway but to reduce sulphation and breakdown of the metals in the battery.

bocabikeguy
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Read your post on the addition of the relay before the fifth battery. Do you think that 60volts is that much strain on the dc/dc controller?

Off the charger, you could be at 70-71 volts. If you run all your lights and horn with this voltage powering the DC-DC converter, there is a real possibility you can blow the FET's in the converter.

If you use a seperate 12v charger for the 5th battery, or if you use a bank charger, it is easy to run the motor at 60 volts and the DC-DC converter from the original 4 batteries, by using a relay, as I showed.

If you use a 60v charger you should use a BattEq or equivalent to keep the pack balanced after installing the relay.

You can reduce the likelihood of damaging the DC-DC converter at 60v by not turning on your headlights for the first few blocks afer a full charge. The initial voltage drops quickly after a full charge.

zerogas
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Guys, I've had a look at the dc-dc converter on these bikes. They are rated for a 60v input, so they probably have much higher rated FETs. More than likely, it's the same converter used on all the bikes x-treme sells, including the xm2000 etc... I've been running 60v for months now with no problems at all from any component on this bike. I haven't even blown any fuses. If worse comes to worst, I have another 12v 7ah battery which is small enough to put anywhere on the bike for lights, etc... No big deal if it does pop. :)

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Thanks for the info Zerogas. I had read a post from you a few weeks ago talking about the dc/dc converters. I didn't think you had had problems and I think that MilleyM's electrical problems started before he did the 60volt conversion.

Still going forward with the conversion but I am still trying to figure out the best way to wire it up so that I can switch back and forth between 48 and 60 if I need to.

chas_stevenson
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Yes. Speed is directly proportional to voltage. 5 batteries will make you go 25% faster than 4 batteries (5/4).

I do not understand, is this some kind of new math? 48 volts is 80% of 60 volts, if you have 80% of the total power then adding another 12-volts is only adding 20% more voltage, how do you come up with 25%? It seems you took 48-volt pack and allowed each battery to represents 25% of the voltage which would be true. Then you added another 12-volts, so you assumed another 25%, but that totals 125% the way I was tough to add. Can someone clarify?

So, if I only have 20% more power how can I go 25% faster?

Smarter than a fifth grader?
Grandpa Chas S.

hyperob
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Re: New (Happy) owner of an XB-600

Hey Zerogas (or anyone who has replaced their stock tires)

I had read a post of yours about how the standard tires suck. I just wanted to know if you had replaced your tires with better ones? I've been scouring the internet but I havent really found anything comparable. The tires on the xb-600 are 16 x 3" and most replacements I've seen are 2.5". Has anyone found tires that would be better the stock ones? I couldn't find the Bopper in size for the XB and the Pirelli's are 2.5". What will actually fit on the rims for the xb-600?

hyperob

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