Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller recommendations?

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nasukaren
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Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller recommendations?

I think I've found the motherlode for my EV conversion, check the specs.... 7000 watts @ 48V !!!!


http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5139

Model: HXT80-100-A
Turns: 6
Maximum Power: 7000W
Resistance: 17ohm
Idle Current: 3.5A
ESC: 150A
Input Voltage : max. 48V
Kv : 180 rpm/V
Weight: 1570g
Shaft: 12mm
Voltage Range: 20-48v
Non Load Current: 3.3A
Equivalent: 60-80cc Gas Engine

Even if I run this underpowered so I don't overheat it, it's more than enough power for my mo-ped conversion. Wow!

I looked through the UnitedHobbies website for a good (cheap) controller. Looks like people on that site are using the Sentilon ESC but it looks like this is an RC controller. Can anyone suggest an inexpensive alternative? I'm happy I found an inexpensive motor @ $150 but I don't want to spend $400 for an Alltrax AXE!

zerogas
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

That's an RC motor. I'm not sure if it will push anything with much weight "ie.. scooter + rider". Let us know how it works out.

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

andys
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

There is a guy running it on an e-bike at endless sphere. He hit 52MPH on a bicycle with it, the crazy guy. Biggest problem was heavy duty enough connectors--he had an electrical fire at some point. It will draw way over 100 amps pulling a load, so you need super heavy duty connectors and wiring.

I asked about what controller he was using, but I don't think he answered my question.

Look at how small that thing is on his bike in the first photo. I've got to think you will have serious overheating issues with a motor that size with that kind of power pulling a heavy load. it was designed to turn an RC airplane propeller!

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5156

zerogas
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Right. It could be a good buy though. I'm trying to break the 40's on my my xb 600. This could be perfect since hub motors are so expensive. It's a nice motor for 150 bucks!

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

andys
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

The other issue is, what kind of rpm does that motor turn? Controllers can have a motor RPM range that they are designed to work within. if you go above that range, they don't work right. I know the Kelly controllers are like this, because I know someone who was having a high speed hiccup with one and a 1500 watt high speed motor.

nasukaren
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

From the specs:

Kv : 180 rpm/V

So if you're running it at 24V, then the max RPM is 4320 which is usable.

At 48V, the RPM is 8640 which is not so usable......

In the user comments, it looks like someone used it on a motorcycle conversion and the thing absolutely ZIPPPPPPED. I'm very interested in this motor and am strongly leaning towards getting it.

Karen

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

Mik
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

nasukaren
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Reading his other posts, it looks like he's using a R/C motor controller too:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5168&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30
http://www.allelectricrc.co.uk/suppo-su100a-opto-esc-4-10s-1283-p.asp

Most probably with a servo tester as the throttle control.......

Hmmm.... this seems more and more doable!

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

mopedbrainy
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

try this TNCSCOOTERS.com

andys
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

I know TNC scooters very well, but they only sell stuff for brush motors.

Maybe you can put a big propeller on that motor and mount it in the front of the moped and get the bike to take off!

mopedbrainy
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

My understanding was that that hall effect had to do with magnets and brush-less motors.Any one care to educate me and about TNC stuff?

andys
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

TNC is a big seller of scooter parts for Brush motor scooters. they list 24 controllers in their electric scooter parts section, but none will work with the motor this post is about.

http://tncscooters.com/partsdb.php?type=ES

LinkOfHyrule
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Given that it is an RC motor, it's probably also sensorless, meaning that you will need a sensorless controller to run it. This one was the most appropriate I could find from Hobbycity.

And, yah, these things are impressive. The one that Scott over on the ES was far smaller than this (2.8kW rated), and was getting him up to over 50mph. This one could theoretically do over 70.

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andys
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Something doesn't make sense to me here. How can these extremely light weight, inexpensive components, designed to make a lightweight RC airplane fly, way outperform a 20-25 pound $800 E-tec or $1000 Mars motor with a $400 -$500 controller?

My guess is that they will only last a couple of months at most moving a 200 pounds plus package of people and machine at high speeds and up hills. No one has yet put more than a few miles on an ebike or scooter to test out the durability long term.

It is amazing though what they have been capable of doing, at least short term. By the way, what kind of throttle would work with the controller in the post above? Aren't those things designed to receive a radio controlled wireless signal?

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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Don't look at me. Recumpence on the ES has been riding his for a while with no problems. They seem to work. They are made to handle quite a bit (14lb planes aren't easy to get into the air), so I don't see why they wouldn't last, especially if they are used conservatively. That controller I linked to is actually underpowered for that motor.

And apparently, the ESCs use a weird pulsed throttle signal, so most people are using servo testers as throttles.

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Jeffkay
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor.......

The problem with the ESC controller for a plane is that it cannot slowly start the motor. It will come on fast and jerk your ride. The motor you are looking at is meant to be cooled by the "fan" of the propeller. Unless you can cool this it will not live long. Also, the bearings will probably not live long as the RC plane, being a "hobby" device, is not meant to run long. The 8000-10000rpm is very hard on bearings and they probably won't last in an EV/bike. The Alltrax AXE will not run a motor like that. If you must use these motors, try the Kelly controller for brushless motors. It may solve the start-up problems but you will still have the other issues. If you are doing something heavier than a bike like a scooter, then maybe you should look at the Etek brushless. It is robust and not too expensive.
Jeff K.

nasukaren
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor.......

Well, I ordered the 130kv version and it should arrive within a week or two. I wasn't sure what ESC to get, so I held off on that.

My Piaggio has a centrifugal clutch which I retained, and the pedals were originally designed to kick-start the engine. So I should be able to spin the motor up to a reasonable speed before the clutch engages.

I hope!

I'll post more when the new parts arrive!

Karen

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

andys
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor.......

I pulled this from the link that tells what stuff you need to run an RC motor as an EV motor. You will still need to get a sprocket of some sort that will fit the motor shaft and take a pretty heavy duty chain or drive belt. You will also need heavy duty wiring and connectors, at least that can handle 100 amps, like they use on robots.

I saw these motors last year, and people were talking a lot about them at the pocket bike forum. I had some serious questions as to how they would cross over to small EV use. The guy who wrote the stuff below is the first person I know who really made the thing work, and he is also an RC expert. You can not just bolt that thing up to a bike and hook up a throttle and controller like a standard motor. I am not trying to discourage anyone from attempting to tap into what appears to be the most power per pound available on the market today in an electric motor. Just to let people know it is a pretty involved set up.

Here is what the fellow in the link above had to say about what he needed to complete the kit, besides the motor, high output batteries, sprockets, chain, and mounting hardware. He also doesn't give an exact wiring diagram as to how you hook up the ESC, motor, batteries, servo tester, and BEC.

I am interested in this set up myself, although I don't have a particular project at the moment for it to power, and that is why I am following this thread.

"Next up was the controller (ESC in RC lingo). That stands for Electronic Speed Control. In RC, the controller must be VERY small, light weight, and efficient. The controller I chose (Castle Creations HV110) weighs only 5.9 ounces and is the size of a couple match boxes stacked on top of each other. VERY small indeed! This controller is rated at 110 amps at 48 volts continuous. I have two of them in RC cars and have pushed them up to 127 amps at 48 volts without any heat buildup problems, shutdowns, nothing. They just run. Also, the controller is fully programmable via USB. Perfect!

Now, the problem with using RC equipment is the fact that these controllers are designed for use with an RC receiver. The receiver puts out a pulsed signal that RC servos and controllers recognize. This presents a problem. How do I simulate the pulse width of a receiver output to drive the controller? A little internet research netted a perfect solution, a "Servo Tester". This is a simple device that produces a variable pulse via a simple potentiometer. So, bingo, I can drive the controller without an RC receiver.

Next is another component referred to in RC terms as a BEC. This is a battery eliminator circuit designed to eliminate the need for a receiver battery in an RC vehicle. The RC controller I am using assumes there is a receiver and/or small pack to power it up. Without a receiver, I need a way to power up the controller's internal circuitry. So, I picked up (also from Castle Creations) a high voltage BEC that will do the job just fine."

nasukaren
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ arrived!

Well, the motor arrived! Very fast shipping, I ordered on Friday and it got to me on Wednesday from Hong Kong. The packaging was secure and everything seemed in place:

The motor is much heavier than it looks and it rotates with a definite clunk-clunk-clunk. I got the 130Kv version which means that at the 24 volts that I plan on running it, my max RPM should be 3120 rpm, which isn't that different from the current brushed motor I'm using so I won't have to fiddle with the gear ratios much.

I do like the odds and ends they include, including the very handy motor mount. Since this is an outrunner motor, the outer shell actually spins around so you can't mount it like a normal motor, you have to mount the one stationary end. It has two spindles, I'll be using the one closer to the base to run my V-belt and affix a small propeller blade on the one on the far end to help cool the motor.

One thing that concerns me are that the motor windings aren't varnished. Can anyone tell me how to varnish them -- or whether that would be a Genuine Bad Idea &tm;?

Unfortunately, I ordered the ESC and servo tester from separate places and they still haven't arrived, so there's nothing to do right now but twiddle my thumbs.

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

zerogas
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Wow! If this works it could change the electric scooter market in a really good way. Keep us posted. I have a rad2go sunbird that is in non-running order that could be a rocket with one of these power motors.

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

eped
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Cute looking motor but the input wires seem fairly small if you are going to pump >100A through them. This seems odd (should use ~2 AWG for 100A continuous).

Green electric power and use thereof; what more do we need?

nasukaren
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

It's not continuously rated at 100A.... I'm not sure what its continuous rating is, I suspect it has to do with how much air cooling can occur. But I agree, given its relatively thin input wires, I'd suspect that it's most likely 30A continuous with 130A peak.

Model: HXT80-100-B
Wire Turns: 8
Resistance: 32ohm
Idle Current: 2A
ESC Required: 130A
Input Voltage : max. 48V
Kv : 130 rpm/V
Weight: 1570g
Shaft: 12mm
Voltage Range: 20-48v
Non Load Current: 2.0A
Maximum Power: 6500W
Equivalent: 60-80cc Gas Engine

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

leopardpm
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

I am interested in these motors as well - but I think the problem we are all having is that we basically only understand straight DC - these controllers and motors are Extremely high frequency version of pulsating DC - more sophisticated than regular AC. I also think that they don't have the endurance of our heavier/bulkier DC motors, but time will only tell on that - Let's see some decent tests! I will order a setup to go on my trike in about a month or so, but am scared of frying the whole motor/controller setup ($250+) after a few runs (or even 30 runs - still not worth it!). Expensive test!

LinkOfHyrule
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Meh, I think not. They're regular BLDC motors, the same as used on ebikes. The only substantial difference is the controller.

ebike controllers use hall sensors placed in the motor to determine the position of the magnets in relation to the windings, while R/C (sensorless) controllers use the BEMF coming out of the phases to determine position. This also means that the motor needs to be moving for the controller to figure out what to do, however, so it'll give a random kick to one of the phases to try to get the motor going and work it out from there. But, since ebikes are a lot heavier than a little car or plane, this might be causing problems in the long run. A number are using them without issue, however, so they seem to work pretty well.

The author of this post isn't responsible for any injury, disability or dismemberment, death, financial loss, illness, addiction, hereditary disease, or any other undesirable consequence or general misfortune resulting from use of the "information" contai

nasukaren
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Yes, I hear you. Scott hasn't posted recently about his e-recumbent project, I'd be curious to see how he is doing in terms of longetivity. I'd be very happy if I heard he was commuting every day to work with it!

I'll keep posting my test runs to my blog. Now that I have the Watt's Up, the Venom Temp sensor, and the laser tachometer, I have a pretty good idea of what is going in in terms of general terms.

Karen

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

leopardpm
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

well, fine by me then! I at least can understand the straight DC stuff... just thought I saw alot of references to frequency at that hobby motor website is where I got my guess from.

LinkOfHyrule
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

well, fine by me then! I at least can understand the straight DC stuff... just thought I saw alot of references to frequency at that hobby motor website is where I got my guess from.

ESCs do use higher PWM frequencies than normal ebike controllers because some of the higher-rpm motors are so fast that the usual 18kHz waveform can't control the motor's power properly. It's really only a technical difference, so not of particular concern. Plus, the ones used for ebiking and the sort are relatively low-rpm to make gearing it down enough easier.

The author of this post isn't responsible for any injury, disability or dismemberment, death, financial loss, illness, addiction, hereditary disease, or any other undesirable consequence or general misfortune resulting from use of the "information" contai

nasukaren
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

I got the motor mounted in my Boxer and everything seems to be working great. The only problem is that I'm popping the 30A main fuse like crazy. I have to up it to 50A or 90A since this motor is so hungry. I also need to get more batteries!

I'm supporting the motor on both spindles, so that should help with bearing longevity. Let's see how well it does for my daily commute.

More info on my blog about it: http://visforvoltage.org/blog/nasukaren

Karen

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

kp647
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Hello, this is my first post here!
I am an electric Rc airplane person and have alot of experience with high power rc systems and motors like you are using on your moped.
I also beacame interested in buidling a small electric dirt bike to ride in my yard.

so I have lots of large lipo battery packs of 50.4v 12s

Has anyone figured a way to use a regular throttle like hall or whatever on one of the rc ESC's like you are using?

If so I can work out the rest

The motor you have found is the best deal out there for a large brushless outrunner.
I may try it also.

thanks in advance
Kevin

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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

I believe the answer to your throttle question was debated and the best solution to using a twist grip was as follows:

-use a servo tester (or build one)
-replace/splice into where the potentiometer to adjust the frequency of the pulses with the leads going to a resistor type throttle (0-150k)

looking for the particular thread/forum where I read this....

nasukaren
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Re: Holy smokes, 7000 watt brushless motor........ controller re

Hi -

I believe the answer to your throttle question was debated and the best solution to using a twist grip was as follows:

-use a servo tester (or build one)
-replace/splice into where the potentiometer to adjust the frequency of the pulses with the leads going to a resistor type throttle (0-150k)

I posted notes along that line here: http://visforvoltage.org/blog/nasukaren/4190

Fortunately the pot values match between the Magura and the servo tester I have. This might not be true for all over-the-counter servo testers.

The one thought I had regarding the OP's question is that he wants to run 50V+. Unfortunately, even the Phoenix HV tops out at 48 volts (and only 36 NiMH cells).

K

Working on a Piaggio Boxer (mo-ped) EV conversion: http://gpsy.com/ev

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