Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & XM-4500

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jdh2550_1
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Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & XM-4500

Hi,

As a long overdue follow up to my originally planned comparison here is some performance comparison data for a Vespa 250cc scooter, a Vectrix, an XM-3500Li and an "XM-4500Li". The "XM-4500Li" is not a "real product" it's an XM-3500Li that has been upgraded as follows: 4 more 40Ah LFP cells (24 cells total), a 4500W motor from Kelly Controls and a Kelly Controls 300A controller.

Here are the pertinent numbers:

  0-48 kph   0-80 kph    
  0-30 mph   0-50 mph   Vmax - kph   Vmax - mph
Vespa 250 4.4 9 105 65
Vectrix 5 9.5 101 63
XM-4500 7.8 19.5 86 53
XM-3500 8.8 N/A 61 38

The data was collected with fresh battery charges on level ground on non-windy days. All data was collected and analyzed using Corsa Instruments hardware and software.

Some things to note:

1. The Vespa's speedo indicated 75mph the GPS data was 65mph (see, we told you it wasn't just XM's that had "optimistic speedos"! ;)
2. Vectrix claim a 0-50mph time of 6.8 seconds on their website. It's possible that we could maybe squeeze another 0.5 to 1 second of improved accel time (after all I was riding someone else's bike!) but does anyone know of any independent online performance figures for the Vectrix? Do any intrepid Vectrix owners want to provide an electronically measured (e.g. GPS, radar, accelerometer) 0-50mph (0-80kph) time for us?
3. Note how close the Vectrix is to the Vespa.
4. While the XM-4500 isn't as quick off the line many people have ridden it and commented on how "brisk" the acceleration is.
5. The top speed we managed to get out of the XM-3500 on the day of testing was 38 mph - however, we had seen speeds of 42 mph at other times. We're not sure what caused the discrepancy - we checked the usual suspects (brake drag, tire pressure) but didn't spend too much time worrying about it.

I'm no longer planning on the head-to-head comparison noted in my previous link above. We collected the above data as input for our rEV 1 project. We will publish performance data for that bike when we've finalized our setup.

Note, do any RMartin EVD owners want to provide similar data for us? It would be great if you do - but please let's have something that's electronically measured and logged (e.g. GPS, radar or securely mounted accelerometer - GPS preferred).

I hope you find the data interesting. We hope to add a Kymco 200 (really a 160cc) to the line up as well.

MikeB
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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

Hi John,

Last fall, my RMartin EVD gave me a top speed of 53mph, measured on a reasonably flat road, ~70 degrees, very light wind. This was recorded with a Garmin Zumo 550, securely fastened to the handlebars (well, as securely as duct tape gets). Probably be slower in cold weather.

I was meaning to collect acceleration data as well, but I'll have to grab one of the iPhone accelerometer applications to do so.

Btw, most motorbikes seem to be about 10% optimistic on speed, including high quality brands like Honda. I was actually surprised that the EVD was less than 10%, think it was in the 6-7% range.

I'd also like to see numbers for a 150cc gas scooter, if anyone has one of those around.

My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.

rgx
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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

I have tried to make acceleration measurements on the Vectrix using a G-tech, but it fails. The G-tech needs a bump off the line to start the measurement, and the Vectrix takes off too smoothly. And it's a bit cold for testing over here, around -10 -- -5 deg. C.

The vespa you have been testing is probably old. The german magazine Scooter Sport tests more or less all scooters on the market, here are some 0-80 km/h figures from them:

Aprilia Atlantic 250ie: 7.8 s (same engine as Vespa 250 GTS)
Derbi GP 125: 11.2 s
Peugeot Jet Force 125: 11.4 s

E-max 110S (0-40 km/h): 10.0 s

In a test of Honda SH300i they say the tachometer shows 140 km/h at topspeed 133.6 kmh/, and 50 km/h at speed 48 km/h. For Honda Innova (125) they say tacho shows 50 km/h at 47 km/h actual.

jdh2550_1
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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

RGX - thanks! I'm not sure how old the Vespa is; also once again it was someone else's bike so when testing it we didn't do anything radical like hold it on the brake and load up the CVT (can you even do that with a CVT?) - this was just from a standing start go to wide open throttle.

Does that magazine have a web page that shows what they've tested? That could be a good resource for us.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

MikeB - thanks for the data. If you do collect data via an iPhone then also have your GPS attached so that you can see if there's correlation between indicated Vmax speed. I'm a little wary of the iPhone as a performance measuring tool - but hey, it's worth a shot. Oh, and don't hold the iPhone in your hand - it needs to be securely mounted to the bike.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

rgx
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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

Does that magazine have a web page that shows what they've tested? That could be a good resource for us.

They do have a web page but without publishing much. You have to buy the magazine. http://www.scooterundsport.de/

There is a french site that publishes reviews and tests, including one of the Vectrix http://www.scooter-infos.com
They measure 0-100 m time oddly enough, guess that's more interesting for a Paris driver speeding to the next red light. And I partly agree because it will favor a vehicle that is quick off the line. In any case, you can compare the Vectrix data to many other scooters.

All-in-all, two excellent opportunities to brush up on your language skills. :-)

MikeB
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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

MikeB - Oh, and don't hold the iPhone in your hand - it needs to be securely mounted to the bike.

Well, my plan was to keep the phone squeezed securely between my teeth, but I suppose I could try mounting it somewhere. :D

My electric vehicle: CuMoCo C130 scooter.

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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...
MikeB - Oh, and don't hold the iPhone in your hand - it needs to be securely mounted to the bike.

Well, my plan was to keep the phone squeezed securely between my teeth, but I suppose I could try mounting it somewhere. :D

like where the sun don't shine? ;) Someone else tried measuring accel while holding his iPhone so it wasn't a totally lame point to make... Honest! :D

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

John, I get 48mph on flat roads with my 24cell 3500li. (stock except for the 4cells and homemade BMS) Got 1000kl and no smoke yet. Another piece of the puzzle. I charge with the 15amp 87v charger from elite.

2008 XM3500li Mods/Kelly KBL12251/84v 28cell 40AH pack/ Variable regen brake trigger on left brake handle/Givi/Cycle Analyst/Homemade BMS

KMX Typhoon Home build (recumbent pedelec) with two Astro Brushless 3220motors/twin castle Phoenix ICEHV 160/ Cycl

dshupp
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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

I'd like to know the 0-50mph time of the RMartin EVD too. Anyone measured it yet?

David

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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

I believe that there is a very significant difference in power delivery at different speeds, which would show an important difference between the Vespa 250 and the Vectrix (and all the others shown in this comparison, of course).

Whilst the numbers seem to show that the Vespa is faster from 0-80km/h than the Vectrix, this fails to show the effect of the electronically controlled "ramp-up" of the Vectrix.

When the Vespa hits 75km/h, it's acceleration will have begun to decline, asymptotically approaching the top speed of 105km/h.

When the Vectrix has reached 75km/h, it has just begun to accelerate very rapidly, because the motor controller allows delivery of maximum amps and the motor develops it's peak power somewhere around 70km/h.

A Vectrix continues to accelerate rapidly to 102km/h, then stays at that speed, electronically limited. The Vespa would take a long time to accelerate from 80km/h to 105km/h.

If a Vespa and a Vectrix were riding side by side at 80km/h, and then started to accelerate hard, as if to pass another vehicle, the Vectrix would leave the Vespa behind very clearly. This effect would be even stronger if done on an uphill road or into a headwind. The Vespa would be much more affected by this than a Vectrix.

I trust you would have kept your electronic measurement data to check if this guess of mine is right? (I have never ridden a Vespa and might be wrong about it, but I doubt it very much).

If it's not too much trouble, could you have another look at your data to clarify this, please?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

If it's not too much trouble, could you have another look at your data to clarify this, please?

Here you go...

In this first run the Vectrix wasn't taken to full speed - but has a "clean" run up to 80kph
v_vs_v2.png

In this second run the Vectrix wasn't taken to full speed, but it was much closer - unfortunately it wasn't a clean run - note the rill on and off of the throttle half way through
v_vs_v.png

Unfortunately the data was taken using someone else's bike (thanks MaryT!) in the city - so we couldn't get good "controlled" speed tests.

The two bikes accelerate remarkably similarly.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

Thank you very much!

Shame about the interruptions to continuous acceleration testing for the Vectrix.

In the first graph, I would not say it was an uninterrupted run up to 80km/h; at 72km/h you can clearly see that the speed dropped rather than continuing to increase for a moment. Just before that dip at 72km/h, the curve was very steep. And just after the dip, when the throttle was again opened fully, it was even steeper, but the throttle was "closed" again at about 80km/h.
If the throttle had remained fully "open" for the full acceleration to 100km/h, the green Vectrix curve would have crossed over the red Vespa curve again, and continued to rise steeply until it suddenly goes flat at 102km/h.
At the same time the Vespa curve is clearly flattening.

In the second graph the Vectrix throttle was gradually reduced down as the speed was increasing, that's why the graph is not steep and does never reach 102km/h.

I'll try if I can overlay data from my own acceleration tests over these graphs.

If the data sets match for the part with fully open throttle, then the continuation of the graph would likely also be correct.

I can understand why someone who is not used to a Vectrix will ease off the throttle: It seems to get stronger and stronger as it accelerates up to 85km/h, then it continues with that power!

Thanks again, I'll try to fill the gap in the graph if possible....

I'll use this previously posted video, take the speedo reading and the timing at the bottom and try to add it to the graph you showed:

Originally posted at:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2547-vectrix-reports#comment-14144

Here you go:
Photobucket

Correlations don't often come any closer than that!

The vertical line in the graph is actually not at 80km/h, either!

Results of this test: 0-80km/h: Vespa and Vectrix take exactly the same time to reach 80km/h, but the Vectrix has a stronger acceleration at the time 80km/h is reached.

This leads to a 4 second shorter 0-100km/h time for the Vectrix!

The difference in high speed acceleration ability becomes even clearer if expressed as the acceleration time from 80km/h to 100km/h:

80-100km/h Vespa: 11s
80-100km/h Vectux: 6.5s

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

Hi Mik,

The vertical cursor wasn't supposed to be positioned at the 80km/h spot - it was in essence just random and left at the point where the cursor was when I took the screen shot. The trouble with my test route on the Vectrix was the only place I could take it to 62mph (100km/h) was on the freeway - and that's not somewhere where you can do a full stop for an acceleration run. Hopefully I'll be able to get a Vectrix to use side by side with the REV-1.

One would expect the Vectux and Vectrix to have the same performance - right? I.e. you haven't done anything that would change the performance of your bike?

In which case I'm glad to see that there's good correlation between our two runs. Right down to the "kink" at around 35km/h where the acceleration picks up again. Look at the first four dots and you can see a curve developing, but dots 4 through 8 plot a much steeper line. Interesting.

Also interesting is that we both get a 0-80km/h time of approximate 9 to 9.5 seconds. Which does not jibe with Vectrix advertising where they clearly state 0-50 mph (0-80 km/h) in 6.8 secs.

Does anyone out there have a 0-80 km/h time that comes close to the Vectrix claim?

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

Mik
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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

Also interesting is that we both get a 0-80km/h time of approximate 9 to 9.5 seconds. Which does not jibe with Vectrix advertising where they clearly state 0-50 mph (0-80 km/h) in 6.8 secs.

Does anyone out there have a 0-80 km/h time that comes close to the Vectrix claim?

I've tried repeatedly to get an answer (from the Vectrix owners posting here) to this question - not much luck so far!

But many new ones have joined since them, maybe someone care to repeat the test?

It's easy enough with an MP3 recorder or camera - just stick it on the scooter or your jacket somehow, press record, count READY, SET, GO! and then call out as you hit 20, 40, 60, 80, 90, 100km/h .

At home, in the safety of your armchair, you can use a stopwatch to do the timing. Or even just use the seconds displayed on your MP3 player or computer screen.

Re: Vectux/Vectrix performance: It should be the same with full batteries; my first Vectrix was the same re acceleration as the Vectux. The video above actually shows the acceleration of my first Vectrix, without any modifications, before the fuse blew and they replaced the entire scooter for that reason! All the modifications to the Vectux are unrelated to top speed or acceleration; they just improve battery thermal management and manual low-voltage protection for the weaker cells.

I have no access to the CAN bus yet - but hopefully there will be a few adventurous owners with programming skills who cannot wait to get their hand on it when the warranty expires. Just a few months to go!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

Mik
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Re: Performance Comparisons: Vespa 250, Vectrix, XM-3500 & ...

I found the video of the Vectux acceleration / deceleration test with RETAMPI.

The big red numbers show the percentage of maximum current draw / regen.

That shows nicely how the current flow is restricted until it peaks at about 75km/h.

It was originally posted in this thread: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3747-vectux-part-3-vectrix-retampi

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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