In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

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electrogo
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In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

:jawdrop: I bought an XB-600 in October of last year. After discovering this site I decided to perform the shunt mod and added another battery for more speed. I used MilleyM's wiring method and it worked great. In the beginning of December the battery guage, lights, and turn signals would not work. Then the bike would not turn off. If I twisted the throttle, even when the key was in the "off" position, the back wheel would spin. I opened a ticket with X-treme and they sent out a new controller. That did not fix the problem so they sent out a DC-DC converter. That did nothing. Finally a new ignition was sent and that did not fix anything. I checked all of the connections to see if anything was disconnected, but nothing was. I decided that I wanted to mount my controller near the rear of the bike so I lengthed all of the wires so I could do just that. My biggest problem is I cannot remember which wires go to what. I can identify all of the wires that connect to the motor. I am have trouble figuring out how to connect the red wires that have the 30A fuse, and the black wires that are looped together. I know I should have taken pictures before I started this project (labeling the wires would have been a good idea!), but hindsight's 20/20. I When I connected everything and plugged in the battery pack there was a large spark - actually more like a small fireball! The 30A fuse was also blown. Anyway, does anybody have pictures of the wiring? I have the wiring diagram and it has helped, but pictures would be such a great help. I bit off more than I could chew. I am calling on all of my fellow XB-600 owners (with more sense than me)- please help! This is a fun bike and I am dying to get back on the road. I would be very grateful.

Clint

Fresno, CA

RANDEL24
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Hey guys,anybody out there that can help this guy? Randel Hanford Ca.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

I just thought I would check in to see if anybody has any suggestions.

clinton

hyperob
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Hi Clinton,

That is an interesting and frustrating problem you have. I am sorry to hear that this is happening to your xb. I've changed the wiring over the time that I've had my bike so a picture of my wiring probably wouldn't help you since I have a battery balancer and and a few other things wired into the bike. If you follow the wiring diagram of the xb that MilleyM put up it will pretty much tell you how the bike is supposed to be wired from the factory (I say supposed cause mine had a few variations). It took me quite a while of looking at it and looking at the bike to figure it out. I am not an electrician or an electrical engineer so I know how you feel, but since you've already done some mods then I think you are on your way.

As to your problem: You replaced the DC converter and the ignition and neither solved the problem. You say that you followed the wiring and couldn't find anything loose or unconnected or damaged. If the glass 10amp fuse is not blown then by process of elimination it is probably your main controller. Some connection might of gotten loose inside the controller or the mosfets blew after the mod. I know that I've gone through a couple of controllers to get mine the way I want.I've done the fuse blowup thing on mine as well. It usually means the controller is fried. Also you have to make sure that no bare load wire is touching the frame of the bike or it will cause the same problem.

My suggestion: buy two controllers. Keep one stock and rewire the bike as originally was being careful to make sure that every connection is snug and secure. See if this solves your problem. If that works then I would take the second controller and mod it. Replace the stock one and see if everything still works. If it does then I would do the wire extension to place the controller where you want it and this time carefully follow the diagram.

I know this may seem like a lot of time and money but its better than scrapping the bike and quite frankly you probably wouldn't be happy to go back to the original speed and performance of the unmodded xb-600....its just not that fun.

Thats about what I have on the advice side..some of the other guys on the forum might have better ideas but process of elimination has always worked for me.

Good Luck.

captainslug
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

I'll try to take pictures of all of the connectors sometime on Friday. Mine is pretty much naked, so to access all of the wiring clusters all I have to do is remove the floorpan.

Blowing out the 30amp fuse is a giveaway that the wiring from the battery pack to the controller, charger socket, or lighting system is shorted out.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Thanks for the help guys. I have a new controller, but I have chosen not to hook it up because of the fire that almost occured last time I plugged in the battery. I guess I will do though. What's the worst that could happen? Well, seriously, what is the worst
that could happen? Is there any chance that the battery pack could explode? Is there a way to minimize the size of the spark? Any help would be most appreciated. My wife really wants me to get the bike, panels, and parts the hell out of our dining area and I don't blame her (she really loved it when it worked though). I will post some pictures later if you think they will help solve my problems.

Thanks,

Clint
Fresno, CA

clinton

captainslug
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Here's the wiring diagram with little pictures of the connectors, labels, and notes on the insulation color.
http://www.captainslug.com/temp/xb600wiringoriginal.jpg

1. Is there any chance that the battery pack could explode?
2. Is there a way to minimize the size of the spark?

1. No. Even without an inline fuse the contacts in your battery connector will melt off before any serious pack problems will occur. SLA batteries are capable of dumping out dangerous current loads, enough to do minor welding with. But the cables connected to them would have to be rated for that high of a wattage. None of the wiring in the XB-600 is capable of safely handling more than 2,000 watts (48 volts @ 30amps is 1,440 watts).

2. Open up the center console and unplug the DC-DC Converter temporarily (at its own 3-pin connector).
Leave the battery pack unconnected.
Only hook up the controller to the motor connections (6-pin and 3 single pins) and main power pins.
Replace the 30amp fuse with a 5amp or 10amp fuse.
Plug the battery pack into the power receptacle.

If the smaller fuse blows, then no real damage is done and you know that one of those wire sets is shorted, or the controller is dead.
If the fuse does not blow then you can unplug the battery pack and start plugging in other items in the following order to test them for potential shorts. There are easier ways to do this with a multimeter, but this can be faster and simpler to do.

1. Ignition (switch off, then turn on after battery pack is plugged in and the fuse does not blow out)
2. Charger Receptacle
3. Throttle
4. Brake Switch
5. DC-DC Converter

I've had problems with corroded battery terminals causing voltage drop, one shorted controller, and connector insulation or pins coming loose then shorting on the frame, and I killed one controller by welding on the frame while it was still attached.
But all of this happened in the middle of modifying something somehow to eventually reach the state my XB-600 is currently in.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Thanks. I'll try all of your suggestions. Also, do you have a picture of all of the black wires (four I believe) that loop into each other. They attach to the thickest black wire coming off of the controller?

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction,

Clint

clinton

captainslug
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

No I do not. That set of wires connects the negative battery terminal, plug receptacle connector, controller negative, and the negative wire leading to the DC-DC converter connector.

68snewpy
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

As a side note, even when all is normal with the bike's wiring you will get a good sized spark at the connection when plugging it in. The capacitors in the controller become discharged when throttle is applied with the batteries unhooked and then consume power when re-connecting thus causing the spark. This, of course, shouldn't cause the fuse to blow but can still be a little alarming.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

I have tried all of these suggestions, but cannot get it to work. I thought it was going to work, but when I plugged it into the battery pack the plug melted and sparks blanketed the carpet. Now I need to get a new plug and cord. This is so frustrating. Has anyone else experienced this? Does anybody out there know what is making this happen? Should I put in a 40 amp fuse or stick with the 30 amp. The controller I most recently used was brand new. I am ready to just trash this thing. I am afraid to work on it because everytime I do sparks fly out when I connect the battery pack. Please if anybody would help I would be eternally grateful.

Thank you,

Clint

Fresno, CA

clinton

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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

If you're serious about trashing it I'll take it off your hands, honest.

What you describe about sparks flying etc indicates .. possibly a short, or possibly the wires connected backwards. Shorting a battery pack can do amazing things. I have a small collection of half vaporized tools.

- David Herron, The Long Tail Pipe, davidherron.com, 7gen.com, What is Reiki
- Electrified Electra To

zerogas
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Hold up, Is it blowing fuses when you connect the pack back up or not? If it is you have a blown mosfet in your controller... another tell-tale sign of a blown mosfet is the speedo pegging out when the pack is connected. If your bike runs with the key off, you have wires crossed(ie. you're bypassing the switch altogether somehow). I would post pix of my wiring for you to look at, but my bike is so "hacked up" I can't even make sense of what I did now LOL! Keep trying, you'll figure it out. If you need to look at some of my trial and error in my quest for 72v, check my link here: http://visforvoltage.org/forum/4275-72v-35mph-xtreme-xb-600-video-link-here God knows I blew up a few things lmao.
Good luck,
Warren

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

zerogas
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Here's the wiring diagram with little pictures of the connectors, labels, and notes on the insulation color.
http://www.captainslug.com/temp/xb600wiringoriginal.jpg

1. Is there any chance that the battery pack could explode?
2. Is there a way to minimize the size of the spark?

1. No. Even without an inline fuse the contacts in your battery connector will melt off before any serious pack problems will occur. SLA batteries are capable of dumping out dangerous current loads, enough to do minor welding with. But the cables connected to them would have to be rated for that high of a wattage. None of the wiring in the XB-600 is capable of safely handling more than 2,000 watts (48 volts @ 30amps is 1,440 watts).

2. Open up the center console and unplug the DC-DC Converter temporarily (at its own 3-pin connector).
Leave the battery pack unconnected.
Only hook up the controller to the motor connections (6-pin and 3 single pins) and main power pins.
Replace the 30amp fuse with a 5amp or 10amp fuse.
Plug the battery pack into the power receptacle.

If the smaller fuse blows, then no real damage is done and you know that one of those wire sets is shorted, or the controller is dead.
If the fuse does not blow then you can unplug the battery pack and start plugging in other items in the following order to test them for potential shorts. There are easier ways to do this with a multimeter, but this can be faster and simpler to do.

1. Ignition (switch off, then turn on after battery pack is plugged in and the fuse does not blow out)
2. Charger Receptacle
3. Throttle
4. Brake Switch
5. DC-DC Converter

I've had problems with corroded battery terminals causing voltage drop, one shorted controller, and connector insulation or pins coming loose then shorting on the frame, and I killed one controller by welding on the frame while it was still attached.
But all of this happened in the middle of modifying something somehow to eventually reach the state my XB-600 is currently in.

I beg to differ: 72v x 30a = 2160 watts and I've yet to burn ONE wire..... yet....lol

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

When I got my third controller I took it out of the box from Alpha Products then I cut the connectors off and put a conncector on every wire. Then I connected those wires to the others wires coming from the bike. Could it be a blown mosfet if the controller is brand new? Also, is there a more simple way to wire this thing?

Thanks for the help everybody.

clinton

sixpax2k9
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

do you still have the 5th battery installed?
Cause to me it sounds like somehow you have the fifth battery wired improperly or reversed. If you havent already remove any 5th battery and wiring. on my xb-600, all of the wires from the controller are the same color on both ends of the connectors.... the plug going from the bat pack to the charge recepticle and controller is wired like this..... the RED wire is coming from bat #1 + post, the other 3 are in series ie - to + of next one. The black wire is coming from bat #4 - terminal.. the red and black wires then split off and a smaller set goes to the charge receptacle. The other ends go to the controller, the red one goes through the 30A blade fuse. If you havent already, take the battery pack apppart and make sure there is no problem in there. If you have the 5th battery connected... the red wire coming out of the bat pack should got to the - terminal of it, then the + terminal should go to the 30A blade fuse.

If you think that ALL of your wiring is correct, I would suggest this..... disconnect all the batteries and test them individually. Its possible one is bad and in a discharge state.

As for wiring the controller. why did u not keep the original connectors??? I know u moved it somewhere to the back of the bike.... but u could have kept the original connectors.

If the 30A blade fuse is blowing, that would make me first think its a battery wiring issue. you said you got fireball sparks at the connector???? on the bottom of the battery pack? Did the fuse blow or not?? if the fuse didnt blow, then the short is most likely in the RED wire coming from the battery pack wire. unless it is reversed, then it would be the black. That is the only thing I know that would cause the sparks and melting of the plug... a direct route to ground from a + lead of a battery.

Do you have a multimeter??? If you do, set it up for the continuity test, put the black lead on ground (any clean part of the metal frame), and start testing all of your wires to see if one is shorted out to ground.

Let us know what u find out from testing...

David

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

sixpax2k9
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Actually, now that I re-read your post a few times.... It sounds like you wired something wrong when moving the controller, and with you saying that it would run even without the key on, perhaps your 5th battery IS wired incorrectly. When it ran without the key on.... did u notice if it was spinning backwards???? not sure if that is how it would respond to a reversed current, just checking...

It was running just fine... then all of a sudden all the lights and dials on the dash went out? you had not done anything else to the bike?

I know its a lot of questions, but to get to the root of the cause we need to know...

I will probably be taking my bike apart again tomorrow.. I need to go in and finalize some of the wiring, I will try to take some picks, etc. Let me know if you need to know any particular part of the wiring.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

zerogas
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

He's bypassed the switch in his wiring. It's wired all wrong! Some of those wires(black and red) are connected more than once. By this I mean three black wires go together at one point, the reds split off several times etc... You need to look at the wiring diagram and retrace everything you've done to find the problem. Here, look at this and check all your wiring, especially the reds and blacks....
xb600wiring1.PNG

Keep the rubber side down and the shiny side up.

sixpax2k9
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

here is another link to a wiring diagram... a little bit bigger too :)

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3614-xb600-electrical-problems-and-modification-help

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Thanks for the suggestions. I have disconnected all wires and I'm starting from scratch. Does anybody have any pictures of their wiring? If possible, I would like to see how the wires originally hooked up since I cut off the connectors that the bike came with. This along with the wiring diagram may point me in the right direction. Also, does anyone have instructions for check continuity? I bought a multimeter and have used it to check the voltage (48.4 volts with four batteries connected). One last thing: The last time I plugged the pack in the female cord coming from the bike (computer style cord) was melted. Has anyone had to replace theirs and if so where can I get a replacement?
Now I'm off to clean up the area around the bike.

Thanks to everyone. I am dying to get this thing working again. It was so fun when it worked.

Clint

Fresno, CA

clinton

sixpax2k9
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

If I have time tomorrow I will take some pics of my wiring. As far as the wiring, any computer cable should be good enough, just cut it to length. There "should" be 2-3 wires inside of it depending on where u got it from. Make sure to find out which wire is for which receptacle so you dont reverse the polarity. The + plug should go to the large Red wire that goes to the 30A blade fuse. The Black - side should go to the 3 black wires. As far as continuity goes, its different for each meter. There should be a setting maybe under resistance section. Look for the infinity symbol which is an 8 sideways. That should be it. Basically, when there is a straight connection between your red and black probes it should beep. Test it by touching them together, then on just a plain electrical wire that u know is good, put one probe on each end. If it beeps its working fine. For testing for shorts to ground, put the black probe on a bare metal part of the bike frame, use the red probe to test individual wires. If it beeps, it means that wire somewhere is connected to ground.

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Thanks Sixpax. Now regarding the three wires that go into the 30a fuse holder. Two wires come together - one is thick, the other thin. In the other side of the fuse holder is a wire about the same gauge of the thin wire in opposite side. Where do these wires go to?

Same question regarding the black wires (one goes to the negative on the plug that goes to the battery, but I'm confused about the other two).

Lastly, how can I identify the positive and negative wires when I buy a new computer cable?

Sorry about all of the questions, but this is a cluster

Thanks for everything,

Clint

Fresno, CA

clinton

sixpax2k9
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

OK, going into the fuse holder..... 1 thin red one from the charging plug, 1 thicker one from the battery pack wire, the other I havent followed, but i am guessing it goes to the dc-dc converter. Out the opposite side of the fuse it should go to the thick red wire of the controller.

Same thing on the black wires.... 1 from the charging socket, 1 from the battery pack, 1 to dc-dc converter and 1 to the controller. ( the one for the dc-dc converter MIGHT not be connected there.. it may be attached to the frame under the dash). If you are not sure about what wire goes to what plug on a computer cable, use your multimeter to check for continuity, or resistance or whatever. strip the cable sheath and each of the 3 wires in it, attach 1 probe to one of the wires, then the other probe into the sockets to see which socket that wire corresponds to. Then u need to make sure which wire of the new cable is + and which is - coming from the battery pack. If you are lucky, they will be red and black and already be correctly aligned. If not, whatever the color attach the + wire to the red fuse holder, and the - to the black wires.

Sorry, I didnt have time to take apart the bike and take pics today, pretty busy few days coming up. As far as the wires from the controller to the motor, they should be the same color, but the wires coming from the motor are a little bit lighter, IE. a darker green wire coming from controller goes to a light green(lime) colored wire from the motor. anything else, i will need to check on.

Good luck, and if/when I get the time I will take pics and write down the wiring for you.

Dave

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

This helps so much! I can finally get my butt in gear and fix this thing.

Thanks again Dave.

clinton

sixpax2k9
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

OK, here is the run down on all the wiring from the controller. I hope you still have the connectors on the new one, otherwise it might be hard to tell the wires apart...

controller

to motor....
3 single thick wires..
Green - Green
Blue - Blue
Yellow - Yellow

6 pin connector....
Blue-Green
Green-Green ^^ these 2 green wires look exactly alike.. cant help u there.
Yellow-Yellow
Black-Black
pin 5 not used.
Red-Red

Controller to front of bike...
3 pin connector. should be for brakes.
Brown-Grey
Blue-Blue
Black-Yellow

1 thick white-white, shows for speedometer.

2 pin connector, goes to 10A fuse.
Blue-Black
Orange-Red .... this then goes to the 10A fuse.

3 pin connector... for throttler
Green-Green
Black-Black
Red-Red

Also, there is a black and red wire that is in a white sheath going to the front of the bike.
These go into the Red and Black leads from the battery pack.

And as i stated before.. the red and black coming from the battery pack.... The red should go into the 30A fuse and the red wire in the white sheath going up front. the other end of the fuse goes to red wire on controller and to the charging receptacle. The black wire goes to the black wire in the white sheath from up front and to the black wire from the controller.

Since there are multiple wires of each color and thickness... It would be very hard to know which is which unless you follow them and have the connectors from the controller still on. At the very least... if you are cutting OFF the connectors from the controller etc. at least bundle and tape each set of wires to identify them.

I hope this is enough to get you going... Good Luck !!!!!

Dave

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Hello. I need some clarification regarding the red and black wires in the white sheath. The black wire has a red wire branching off it. Where does it go?

Thanks again.

clinton

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Ok. I reconnected everything except two wires. I am absolutely sure that all of the wiring is connected correctly with one exception. I connected two of the three wires (two black, one red) in the white sheath going to the front of the bike. I connected the red wire to the orange wire next to the blue wire on the controller. Then I connected one of the two black wires to the blue wire next to the orange wire. I am left with the one black wire to connect. I am also left with one red wire to connect (the thin wire that is in the same side as the thick wire in the 30amp fuse holder. Now I can't connect these two together can I?

Please let me know what you guys think and thank you again,

clinton

sixpax2k9
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

""""
Controller to front of bike...
3 pin connector. should be for brakes.
Brown-Grey
Blue-Blue
Black-Yellow

1 thick white-white, shows for speedometer.

2 pin connector, goes to 10A fuse.
Blue-Black
Orange-Red .... this then goes to the 10A fuse.
"""

OK. its impossible to be sure which u connected... the ones stated above are the only sets that have different colored wires together... notice the Orange--Red ... that means the orange wire coming from the controller goes to a red wire that goes to the 10A fuse holder.

and the Blue-Black , means a blue wire coming from the controller goes to a Black wire going to the brakes (at least it is according to the wiring diagram, I have not actually physically followed the wires..)

ALSO..... from the 30A fuse..... 1 end with the solo thick red wire goes to the battery pack wire, the side with the 1 thick and 1 thin red wire... the thick one goes to the controller and the thin one goes to the charging receptacle.

Your 1 black wire left..... it probably either goes to a blue wire from the controller(for brakes) or to the - side of the charging receptacle.

There are several wire sets in the white sheaths, probably depends on which worker was doing the wiring on the bike at the time. the lighting and brake wires seem to be in the sheaths.

Did you have the actual connectors on the controller????? It would help knowing to make sure of the connections.

Hope you got everything right and are riding soon !!!!!! :)

Dave

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Can anyone do a physical check and tell me where these last two wires go?

Thanks

clinton

sixpax2k9
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Dude, no one call tell you where to attach that black wire, unless you follow it to see where it goes to. chances are it goes to the - battery lead. as far as that thin red wire from the 30A fuse holder, that For Sure goes to the charging plug in the front of the seat.

If you still have a blue wire on the controller, then the black one probably goes there for the brakes.
best thing to do.....

If you are SURE all the wires you have connected are correct, and the battery pack and plug are correct.
I would say to hook up the batteries and turn it on!!!!! If everything that you have connected so far is correct, then nothing will fry or blow up or anything, if some wires are just NOT connected, a certain aspect of the bike wont function properly, thus you will find out what is not connected... then you//we can deduce where those wires get plugged in at.

Just asking where a BLACK and a RED wire get connected to, well there are about 3 places that each one of them can go to....

You are definitely going to have to help us out here.....

Dave ; Tennessee
XB-600.

electrogo
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Re: In hindsight, it may have been a bad idea

Well I traced the red and black wires in the white sheath directly to the key switch. Do you know where these wires plug into?

Thanks again.

clinton

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