Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

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Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Sure everybody is thinking about lithium. But it looks really scary installing a new chemistry inside the vectrix!

Vectrix did an interesting approach with a lead VABS:
I'm talking about the VX-1E.

pic2L.jpg

Any dealer in USA received/sold a Vx-1E?
At what voltage does it works? Anybody knows how many blocks of 12v/6v are housed inside the batery compartment? Does it use the same charger with a different charging program, suitable for lead?

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Vectrix did an interesting approach with a lead VABS:
I'm talking about the VX-1E.

I'm not sure I'd call it "interesting": Let's take a heavy, range limited bike and make it heavier and more range limited...

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

RuFuS
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS
Vectrix did an interesting approach with a lead VABS:
I'm talking about the VX-1E.

I'm not sure I'd call it "interesting": Let's take a heavy, range limited bike and make it heavier and more range limited...

ahahahah...Precious!!!

You are right...nobody can deny it...ahahahah...

jmap
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

I know a guy that has much experience on transforming electric bikes. He also knows microchip programming (the one inside Vectrix) and works with A123 Systems batteries for some time now. He told me that would love to transform a Vectrix with the new batteries from A123 Systems, the 20Ah Prismatic (http://www.a123systems.com/a123/products)... He tells that with the new prismatic batteries, the Vectrix could have at least 8kwh and upgrade the range to more than 120km at the maximum speed! The charge would take 15 minutes (where possible). These batteries can stand 10C! The actual NiMH in Vectrix has 0.5C.

Now, he only needs a Vectrix to work with...

(sorry my bad technical english)

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

I'm not sure I'd call it "interesting": Let's take a heavy, range limited bike and make it heavier and more range limited..

Yes, I call it interesting: It shows us that our vectrix seem to be ready prepared to receive a battery upgrade without needing to change the charger.... Just a new battery and a software upgrade.... Doesn't this seem interesting?

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

I have tried to think about how to use thunderskys (just for the fun of thinking of course cause my vec is working so I have no reason open it at the time) .
my main concern was the difference in terms of voltage drop, the nimh drops from 1,2v to 1,00 where the thunderskys would drop from 4,00v to 2,50V, to get 144 v at full charge (like what I get on the vec at full charge) I would use 144/4=36 cells,
when the cells would get at their lower voltage of 2,50 v the pack tension would be = 90 v beeing a mutch lower voltage then the low voltage we all get at the end of the charge of our nimh packs .
and at 90 v would the controller, the motor etc work ?
even if the controller could be reprogrammed to work at 90 v, what about the motor performance at 90 V ?
I've already asked this question on various amateur ev boards but did not get any answer ....
appart from the specific vectrix alternative batt question I don't understand how EV can cope with such a big lithium voltage delta ?
sure I miss something obvious but I wonder what in fact

vectrixhoper

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Using Thundersky, I believe that with 40 cells,(40AH or better) and a cut-off voltage of 108 volts, or 2.7 volts per cell, with a full charging voltage of 152 volts, VECTRIX operation should be attainable with the existing charger, and the OLD software! (Old software allowed for approximately 108 volt power reduction point)--36 cells is to few. With charge/discharge for 40 cells at 152-155 max charge, and 108 normal discharge, battery life should be very good, as the cells would not normally be run to the maximum on either end.-Maximum would be 168 volts charge, and 100 volts discharge, for 40 cells.-Bob

Robert M. Curry

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

sure I miss something obvious but I wonder what in fact

This is why Vectrix approach is interesting. They managed to make all systems work with entirely different batteries. Sure the vectrix can be adapted to use TS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery

For a 12 volt nominal voltage lead-acid battery, float voltage is normally around 13.5-13.8 volts, low voltage under load is 10.5V. Probably the are using 11 x 12v lead batteries, with total voltage ranging from 148.5 volts to 115.5 volts.

In the case of lithium, it may be possible to increase maximum voltage to over 160v or 170v... Just SW upgrade...

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Using Thundersky, I believe that with 40 cells,(40AH or better) and a cut-off voltage of 108 volts, or 2.7 volts per cell, with a full charging voltage of 152 volts, VECTRIX operation should be attainable with the existing charger, and the OLD software! (Old software allowed for approximately 108 volt power reduction point)--36 cells is to few. With charge/discharge for 40 cells at 152-155 max charge, and 108 normal discharge, battery life should be very good, as the cells would not normally be run to the maximum on either end.-Maximum would be 168 volts charge, and 100 volts discharge, for 40 cells.-Bob

I have already been looking at TS 40Ah LiFe, but their volumetric dimension is just to big to fit into the Vectrix battery bay.

38 Kokam 40Ah LiPo would fit perfectly as they're exactly as wide as the V's battery bay. Actually, there would still be enough space left for cooling and a balancer.

marylandbob
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

I would think that a Vectrix powered by Lead-acid batteries would use 10 batteries, each 12 volts, in series. This would result in a "End of charge" voltage of 13.5 to 15 volts (temperature and exact chemistry dependant) and an "end of discharge" voltage of about 108 to 110 volts, right in the range of the early Vectrix software!--This would give 135 to 150 volts after charging, and about 110 volts at slowdown-Bob

Robert M. Curry

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

I have some plans to fit alternative NiMH batteries into the Vectux.

All I can fit is about 13Ah of 102s NiMH cells. But that will probably leave enough space for BMS and better thermal management. One impeller can suck fresh air, the other recirculate air to equalize temperatures in the pack. Or both suck fresh air and an additional device just circulates air inside the battery container to constantly equalize the cell temperatures.

It should be possible to get 20km range at 80km/h on hilly terrain with such a battery; whilst staying within 20% to 80% SOC at all times.

That will be perfectly suitable for my commuting needs and give the pack a very long life.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

This thread has been added to the Vectrix Collaborative Handbook, please stay on topic!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

SVX
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS
Vectrix did an interesting approach with a lead VABS:
I'm talking about the VX-1E.

I'm not sure I'd call it "interesting": Let's take a heavy, range limited bike and make it heavier and more range limited...

I dunno, making it ~20% cheaper to buy, with ~20% less range (still enough for most around-town usage), with only a 7% weight penalty (total weight no more than a Burgman 650 or SilverWing 600 with a full tank of fuel), it could have at least sold a few more bikes, which might have been interesting...

myocardia
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

I have some plans to fit alternative NiMH batteries into the Vectux.

All I can fit is about 13Ah of 102s NiMH cells. But that will probably leave enough space for BMS and better thermal management.

Is this a better range than you're getting at the moment from your OEM battery pack? To which batteries are you referring? What are the retail cost of these 102 NiMH batteries?

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

I know a guy that has much experience on transforming electric bikes. He also knows microchip programming (the one inside Vectrix) and works with A123 Systems batteries for some time now. He told me that would love to transform a Vectrix with the new batteries from A123 Systems, the 20Ah Prismatic (http://www.a123systems.com/a123/products)... He tells that with the new prismatic batteries, the Vectrix could have at least 8kwh and upgrade the range to more than 120km at the maximum speed! The charge would take 15 minutes (where possible). These batteries can stand 10C! The actual NiMH in Vectrix has 0.5C.

Now, he only needs a Vectrix to work with...

(sorry my bad technical english)

(after all hope for warranty will be gone)
I'll be happy to sacrifice my bike if there is only the slightest chance that it will work.
(if it works I want it back (I'll happily pay for the 123's) if it doesn't I might still try to put it back in original state)

but there MUST be some bikes sitting in garages with dead batteries, anyone on this forum knows one?

"doing nothin = doing nothing wrong" is invalid when the subject is environment

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

I was browsing the All Electronics catalog I just got (www.allelectronics.com) and came across a 10 A-Hr NiMH D-cell, part # NMH-D.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/NMH-D/NIMH-RECHARGEABLE-D-CELL-10-000MAH/1.html

Based on the specs in the catalog, it looks to me like 3 or 4 of these in parallel would be able to replace a GP NiMH cell found in the Vectrix. While we're at it, we could come up with a BMS for this array...

Anybody tried something like this before?

Steve

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS
I have some plans to fit alternative NiMH batteries into the Vectux.

All I can fit is about 13Ah of 102s NiMH cells. But that will probably leave enough space for BMS and better thermal management.

Is this a better range than you're getting at the moment from your OEM battery pack? To which batteries are you referring? What are the retail cost of these 102 NiMH batteries?

The range would be clearly inferior to a good stock pack with 30Ah capacity.

The range (per charge) might be comparable to what I get out of my damaged pack (limited to the capacity of the weakest cell, about 16Ah). But because that cell (nd the other weakest cells) also have an increased self-discharge rate, the effective range is ften less. It also remains to be seen if the damage,once started, continues despite the much improved cell management in the Vectux since I installed the manual BMS.
Replacing the bad cells is probably a much better option! Replacing all damaged cells in a pack, then using new charger software combined with ABCool and timers would give much better per-charge range than the replacement pack I am pondering.

But the lifetime range of a replacement pack might be longer, because with more space available better thermal management could keep the need for equalization charges low.

The cells I am thinking of are used NHW10 sticks from the first generation Prius.

The pack would be a 2p 102s NiMH pack.

3p102s would also just fit in, but would not allow to install sufficient support structures for the sticks.

It is difficult to install large numbers of cells without them banging around or rattling loose, as the Vectrix battery recall has shown!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

jmap
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS
I know a guy that has much experience on transforming electric bikes. He also knows microchip programming (the one inside Vectrix) and works with A123 Systems batteries for some time now. He told me that would love to transform a Vectrix with the new batteries from A123 Systems, the 20Ah Prismatic (http://www.a123systems.com/a123/products)... He tells that with the new prismatic batteries, the Vectrix could have at least 8kwh and upgrade the range to more than 120km at the maximum speed! The charge would take 15 minutes (where possible). These batteries can stand 10C! The actual NiMH in Vectrix has 0.5C.

Now, he only needs a Vectrix to work with...

(sorry my bad technical english)

(after all hope for warranty will be gone)
I'll be happy to sacrifice my bike if there is only the slightest chance that it will work.
(if it works I want it back (I'll happily pay for the 123's) if it doesn't I might still try to put it back in original state)

but there MUST be some bikes sitting in garages with dead batteries, anyone on this forum knows one?

If anyone know, please tell. He is waiting for some Vectrix drop dead, to buy it cheap...

jurba
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Hi you say the vec works under a microchip chip , do you have details ? which chip ?
could you get me in contact with this guy, I am a microchip programmer also (modest) , and I miss information about the vectrix specs, it would be great if we could know more about this bike ..

vectrixhoper

jurba
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Using Thundersky, I believe that with 40 cells,(40AH or better) and a cut-off voltage of 108 volts, or 2.7 volts per cell, with a full charging voltage of 152 volts, VECTRIX operation should be attainable with the existing charger, and the OLD software! (Old software allowed for approximately 108 volt power reduction point)--36 cells is to few. With charge/discharge for 40 cells at 152-155 max charge, and 108 normal discharge, battery life should be very good, as the cells would not normally be run to the maximum on either end.-Maximum would be 168 volts charge, and 100 volts discharge, for 40 cells.-Bob

great, I am trying to find a broken vec at the moment there are a couple of bankrupt motorbike sellers at the moment,
I'd like to work on it (not mine cause of course it works great at the moment) .
in order to do what you say it would be necessary to get the soft piloting the charger and the controller ... an other story ....
cause the charger is going to wait for the peak of tension that indicates to stop or reduce the nimh charge , using lithium batt it would wait for the peak for ages
so the question is is it possible to change the charger settings ?
ame queston af for the controler .
what do you think ?

vectrixhoper

jmap
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Hi you say the vec works under a microchip chip , do you have details ? which chip ?
could you get me in contact with this guy, I am a microchip programmer also (modest) , and I miss information about the vectrix specs, it would be great if we could know more about this bike ..

Microchip microcontroler

Resumed system:

I've contacted that person. If he agrees, I'll send you by PM his email.

snail
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Vectrix did an interesting approach with a lead VABS: I'm talking about the VX-1E. Anybody knows how many blocks of 12v/6v are housed inside the batery compartment? Does it use the same charger with a different charging program, suitable for lead?

I'd suggest that you ask a VX-1E user to have a look under the cover to see what type of battery is there. You may well find that it isn't Pb/acid at all. Sorry to be obscure, it was just something I heard that I probably shouldn't have...

Brian

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

to have a look under the cover to see what type of battery is there

MMM you mean silicon batteries?

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

I heard similar. Apparently there were problems obtaining the lead acid cells and so something else was fitted to the VX1-Es. Might be interesting to have a look at one!

Drew

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

to have a look under the cover to see what type of battery is there

MMM you mean silicon batteries?

Silicone batteries are lead acid batteries. They're just a different style.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Silicone batteries are lead acid batteries. They're just a different style.

Ok jdh2550_1. After some little research, everywhere says lead....

vectrix_specs_Página_4-2.jpg

Maintenance free sealed lead/acid, 120V Nominal voltage 3.12 Kwh and..... 300 discharge cycles?? Oh dear! take for granted lead is not the future... So, if it's not lead, what's inside the Vx1-E??

jmap
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

Pardon moi, but this was stupidest project from Vectrix!

SVX
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

The pack consisted of ten ~26A-h AGM sealed lead-acid batteries.

The basic idea wasn't a bad one. Install a hundreds-of-dollars AGM lead pack in place of the thousands-of-dollars NiMH pack, and knock the asking price down by thousands of dollars, reaching more potential customers with the same basic vehicle. Yes, weight would be up about 35 lb., and range would be down about 20%, and cold-weather usage would be an issue. But for a significant number of potential customers, none of these would be as much of an issue as the NiMH bike's asking price. Cycle life would be less, but at the end of battery life, the customer would in theory have the option of replacing with another lead pack for cheap, or upgrading to a lighter-weight/greater-capacity/longer-life battery pack (presumably lithium).

But the idea of needlessly downgrading the acceleration and top speed performance of the VX-1E vs. the NiMH bike was, IMO, misguided at best...

Anyway, as far as I know only one of these bikes ever went to a dealership. It probably didn't make any sense for the company to spend money it didn't have to buy a bunch of lead-acid batteries when there were who-knows-how-many NiMH packs and bikes lying around. It would make more sense to simply discount the bikes on hand.

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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS

so, if it's not lead, what's inside the Vx1-E??

I think we're having a communication problem (my fault, after all, this is my first language and your second (or third?)).

Vx1-E does have a lead-acid battery inside.

As far as I know the VX-1E was intended to use Silicone batteries from Greensaver: http://www.greensaver-gst.com/ - if you cut through the hype of the Greensaver site (which makes it sound like it isn't a lead-acid battery - it is!!!) you will find that this is an SLA (sealed lead acid) style of battery with a different electrolyte (from their site: "Patented compound silicate electrolyte can enhance the battery capability").

These Greensaver batteries were fitted in a lot of the XM line. If you search in those forums you'll see some pictures when Tracy Ingram (aka usatracy) cut one open.

I think EMax also uses Greensavers and because of the relationship between Vectrix and EMax (because of the VX-2) this may be why they chose this style of lead acid battery technology.

There has been much debate over whether Greensaver batteries are actually better than high-quality traditional AGM (absorbed glass mat) SLA (sealed lead acid) batteries.

Think of it this way:

Fruit is a generic type of food stuff.
Lead-acid is a generic type of battery.

Apple is a specific type of fruit.
Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) is a specific type of lead-acid battery.

Fuji, Granny Smith and Golden Delicious are all specific types of Apples.
AGM, Silicone & Gel are all specific types of SLA batteries.

Hope this helps.

John H. Founder of Current Motor Company - opinions on this site belong to me; not to my employer
Remember: " 'lectric for local. diesel for distance" - JTH, Amp Bros || "No Gas.

jurba
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS
Hi you say the vec works under a microchip chip , do you have details ? which chip ?
could you get me in contact with this guy, I am a microchip programmer also (modest) , and I miss information about the vectrix specs, it would be great if we could know more about this bike ..

Microchip microcontroler

Resumed system:

I've contacted that person. If he agrees, I'll send you by PM his email.

sorry a bit off topic
great
a pic 16F877 !!!! a really basic, old and reliable micro controller
this chip has kept me alive at deph in the sea for 3 years : http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/ppo2_meter.html
I've programmed it for 4 years now and it is really a jewl, one can find in in many devices from washing machines to credit cards .
I thougth they were using more powerful DSP's but as in mix gas rebreather diving the simpler the better .
thanks for info .
If we could get the program .... I think they must have programmed the micro controller using the function that make it impossible to read and uncompile it ... I understand ... but on the other hand it would be great to do a bit of reverse engineering .....
on the other hand I know nothing about can transmitters but it is also an ultra classic data transmission protocol used in car industry not so difficult to learn master .
great great great ... an new game space ... I have finished to play with underwater electronics now I will try to play with ev's electronics
if this board is used both for nimh and lead acid there is no doubt that we could use it to control a lithium pack .
we could even just use the hard and reprogram the microcontrollers from A to Z
mastering the lcd displays will not be a piece of cake on the other hand ... HUMMMMM
regards
jean mi

vectrixhoper

snail
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Re: Vectrix Alternative Battery System. VABS
so, if it's not lead, what's inside the Vx1-E??

Vx1-E does have a lead-acid battery inside.

Sorry, I apologise for being obscure. I believe the intention was to kit out the VX1-E with Lead Acid batteries. But this may not have been the easiest option. I'd like to rip open a VX1-E to find out though...

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