Antiscabs Vectrix

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Aircon
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

silly me ran the fans the whole time i was at work but didn't charge it :(

how do you do that?

AndY1
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix
silly me ran the fans the whole time i was at work but didn't charge it :(

how do you do that?

Pre-charge cooling?

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix
silly me ran the fans the whole time i was at work but didn't charge it :(

how do you do that?

Pre-charge cooling?

bingo, pre-cooling that never ended with a charge.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

...
...
...

how much would you pay for a used vectrix battery that after full charge and balancing still gets:
more than 30Ah with the 70A to 108v testing method,
and around 30Ah with the discharge at 1-2A till 1v step drop testing method (tells you capacity of lowest cell without pulling the pack to bits)?

Matt

I would certainly pay you more than I would pay a dealer for a "new" battery.

But for now, my old battery will do. I'm getting some used cells to replace the damaged cells in it.

Then, I might end up with a good battery including M-BMS, heat shield and ABCool, meaning the Vectux might finally run well and have a reasonable range and good life expectancy!

For now it remains parked until it gets a bit cooler!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

hey mik, hows swapping cells going?
i hear a rumour you've laid hands on some.

i saw something interesting today.
i put my bike on charge, came back an hour later and the pack voltage was 130v, 30 deg c, but charge rate was 10.5A (1365w).
pulled the bike off charge, then checked the voltage, and it was 140v.

i think ive seen someone mention this before. in my case i my battery didn't overcharge because i didn't ive it the oppurtunity.

however, im wondering if i could "force" this error?
it would make utilising the full 160v charger possible output much easier.

in other news, i have been playing around with the way i use the bike.
i have started leaving the bie in a discharged state, and only recharging just before i need it.
self discharge is *way* down.

im able to do this as a full charge will take me from work to home and back again.
im a night worker, so the best coolest time to charge happens to be when im at work.
this also limits the amount of time the charger stays plugged in to around 5 hours.
from mains side measurements, the kwh/100km value has improved from the 11.6kwh/100km i measured some time ago.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

hey mik, hows swapping cells going?
i hear a rumour you've laid hands on some.
...
...

Matt

I'm in the planning stage and will write up a separate post on it soon.

It's a big job, and I want to get it right. At the moment I am testing the used cells I have, am about half-way through the 30 cells.

I'm also waiting for the spacers and the metal band and the inter-cell-connectors to arrive, so I can test if the used cells can be recombined into a module. They show some swelling on the wide sides, presumably from having been charged outside their module without compression. The narrow sides are flat, unlike the damaged cells in the Vectux. Once I have two 9-cell modules ready, I can replace the 13 bad cells in the Vectux.

At the same time I want to test the entire battery again for any other cells that are marginal or bad. Because I will remove the worst cells, and replace them with cells that are better than most or all of my original cells, I need to determine which module to use as the "Sentinel module". I can monitor all modules of 9 or 8 cells during charging and riding for their voltage, and a single cell reversal should be noticeable to the trained eye ;-)
But I need to know where to look, i.e. which module to switch the M-BMS to during a ride to the edge of the battery capacity. I will only need to monitor the module with the weakest cell then.
Of course, due to heat gradient related differences in self-discharge rate, the results from the lab (=my garage) might not be applicable to the real world behavior of the cells. Once reassembled, I'll need to monitor closely if the lab results correlate with what happens on the road. That's easily done due to the "Zoom" function of the M-BMS, allowing to monitor 102, 27, 9 and 8 cell sections of the battery. The monitoring of 5, 3 and single cells will be gone when I'm done with the refurbishment. No need to monitor the good used cells which I got from AZVectrix individually. It will save me a lot of time if I do not install individual cell tabs this time!

The testing alone will most likely take more than two weeks - and that's the fast version!

Other preliminary tests / experiments which are currently running are related to determining the most suitable charge current and ripple suppression for "Universal Freddy".

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

a bit of an update:

blew the main fuse earlier this week.

some bad words said, a big bunch of pushing and some stars (dehydration) later i got it back to my favourite workshop (evworks)

pulled it all apart (bloomin heck that fuse is a PITA to get to) to find a 125A fuse with brown marks on it.
mmmm toasty

i didn't have a spare, so i chanced it and just bypassed it.
no fuse for me (at least not till i pull it apart again and have time to relocate it).

accidentally dropped a metal spacer into the back of the controller, behind the circuit board.
given the back of the circuit board is insulated (maybe they thought ahead of clumsy people like me?) i didn't bother pulling it all apart again to retrieve it.

now for the odd part:
after putting it all back together, i noticed the accelerator was much more responsive and easier to turn.
a quick look at the calibration didn't reveal anything unusual.
rode the bike today, and its all back to normal.
wierd.

i still haven't worked out how to cause the error where the charger runs at 1500w for ever.
it still does it every once in a while though.

ive ordered a high current cycle analylst, so that will be going on soon.

my SE cells are 7 weeks away :D

my BMS arrived today :D

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

...
...

now for the odd part:
after putting it all back together, i noticed the accelerator was much more responsive and easier to turn.
a quick look at the calibration didn't reveal anything unusual.
rode the bike today, and its all back to normal.
wierd.
...
...
Matt

I guess you had the throttle rubber pushed up against the inner part of the handlebar. When you pushed you bike along you moved the rubber where it should have been. See if you can recreate the problem by pushing it towards the midline again.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

procrastination inc
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

"my SE cells are 7 weeks away :D"

woo hoo! mine should be in the same shipment:)

evworks list bussman fuses. Any the right size for the Vectrix. If so, I might get a 200A shipped with the cells

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

How do you decide which fuse is the appropriate one for a given EV with different battery?

Any rational decision process, or just going with the flow?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

you were right mik,
it was the rubber rubbing, learn something new every day.

fuse sizing:
in an EV, the job of the fuse is to stop your wiring causing a fire in the event of a catastrophic controller failure.

so fuse sizing has to do with the thickness of your wires, and the ability of your battery to blow the fuse.

wire thickness and current limit:
http://www.energy-solutions.co.uk/cable_conductor.html

so the 50mm^2 (IIRC?) wiring in the Vetrix is good for 200A continuous.
so you would use a 200A fuse.

both the original pack and a new lithium pack can blow that fuse.

you could use smaller, but that would result in nuisance blows.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

procrastination inc
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

"or just going with the flow?"

flow -> current -> amps -> fuse

ha! :)

for my part, I'd read that the factory installed 200A fuses stock in later bikes and as a retro fit to older bikes if/when the fuse failed.

Matt has it though, fuse sizing and placement is a science. All about being the weakest link in a circuit to protect the rest of the components should there be a failure.

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

just past 7700km.

i thought i blew up my charger yesterday,
went through a puddle 20cm deep at speed and my dash lit up like a christmas tree (motor temp, battery telltale, can bus flashing).

plugged it in when i got to work and the charger didn't start up.

fortunately, when tried again a few hours later, it worked fine....had time to dry out.

not before i ordered a better charger from protech (5400W)

also booked time off work to work the lithium into my V.

so at the end of July, hopefully i can say i have lotsa range :D

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Do you hope to integrate the Protech charger into the system (or to just paint over the Range-Guess-O-Meter and the random number generator and simply rely on the BMS and range estimator between your ears instead)?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

im going to install the high current cycle analyst i have on my bench to give me a direct reading of Ah in and out.
the LiFePO4 discharge curve is flat enough that an Ah at the end of discharge is almost as useful as an Ah at the start, so i will use that as my fuel guage.

i would have had it installed already if my fuse didn't blow and a few other things haven't set me back.

the protech charger could be integrated (i think it does have a CAN bus connection) but im not going to bother with that.

Im getting it mainly to keep the recharge time down when im in a hurry (though i may use my EV car for dump charging)

it has other fancy options like being able to run off either single or 3-phase, and being able to limit mains line current (so if i plug into a 240v 10A GPO, i set a 10A limit or ~2400W, if i plug into a 240v 20A GPO, then 4800W, or if i plug into any 415v connection, then run at full power 5400W)

The limit is manually set, so you can still pull ~24A from a 240v outlet, if you happen to know you're the only load and the usual 20A CB is used (you just have to be around to shut it down before the powerpoint melts :p)

the original guage only reads up to ~33Ah, where as im putting 60Ah cells in, so i needed something else anyway.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

procrastination inc
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

"The Sky Energy shipment is about to leave China."

:D

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

update:

went past 10'000km since november last year (8 months ago).

did a full discharge recently,
still have more than 30Ah capacity (doesn't get red light till after 0 bars)
had some capacity loss, as on a force 30Ah charge when empty charge terminates at 151v, instead of the 148-149v its used to (on a CP 153).

60Ah cells have rocked up (yours look like they're already enroute procrastination :D)

unfortunately mine were the wrong ones (wrong dimension).

I'm working out if I can fit them in anyway.

still 2 months before I can get re-leave to put them in :(.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

procrastination inc
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Yep, got the TNT shipment email yesterday.

pretty excited :)

Why are you even considering changing the battery with such a good performing NiMH pack?

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Why are you even considering changing the battery with such a good performing NiMH pack?

theres lotsa reasons actually:

because even with a good condition battery, it still suffers the same design flaws as all ni-mh batteries have.

i can't get more than 20km@100kmh reliably, because the self discharge means only ~70% of the capacity is easy to get to.
to get the other 30%, it needs to be right after I've forced a full charge in, either by riding to red tell tale, or telling the computer what the actual SOC is (though i still haven't gotten around to trying that one).

when I do have a full charge in, i do get 30km@100kmh.
unfortunately, when the pack is fully charged, self discharge is higher, as is pack imbalance.

the shorter range means I have to buy lots of day time electricity (on many days I do 60km@100kmh).
the relatively low round trip efficiency means I can only get energy use down to ~9.8kwh/100km measured at the power point (100kmh most of the time).
when I run the pack at a high SOC, or in summer, its more like 13kwh/100km.
on lithium it should be 8kwh/100km (again at 100kmh most of the time).

unfortunately my gf is moving to a house thats ~50km away, so I need more range for my Vectrix to still be useful.
*and* work is sending me to another facility thats further away, but i should still be able to make it on my nimh battery.

with a new pack I can increase the system voltage, which increases the max power point (im getting sick of a mates 4 cyl camry out accelerating me :D)

it also allows me to increase the sprung mass of the scooter, to counter the significant unsprung mass.

it allows me to raise the centre of gravity which (should) improve cornering and reduce wind loading.

later I would like to convert Vectrix's to lithium as a job on the side,
but I really need to do my own first before I do anything with other peoples hardware.

on the upside, since the ni-mh battery is in good nick, those owners with a few dead cells in cooler areas will have a temporary source of replacements :D.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

another update:

thanks to EVWorks and the University of Western Australia,

I have a full set of 44 x 60Ah cells in the right size for my Vectrix :D

now just to find the time to pull it apart and put them in.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Do you want to sell your old pack? Sounds like it's a good one!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

procrastination inc
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

I think I want 60AH cells now...

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Do you want to sell your old pack? Sounds like it's a good one!

yes I certainly plan to,
I would be more comfortable testing its actual capacity on the bench before selling it though
I may be able to get just over 30Ah at the pack level, but I can't see if one cells falls slightly short.

my big tester isn't up and running yet (other projects competing for my time).

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

I think I want 60AH cells now...

I'm hearing rumors of a much larger LiFePO4 in LiPo form pack in development as a drop in replacement.

I would suggest putting the 40Ah cells you own now into your Vectrix.

If you still don't have enough range, sell it and buy another stock one and fill it with larger cells.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

colin9876
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Just as a side point while ur talking about voltages. - The high voltage pack is one of the reasons I dont like the vectrix. Electric bikes dont need to be more than 60v really - at that level your at low risk of getting a serious shock.
However these 100v+ bikes, one slip messing round with those electrics could give a nasty shock. Theres not much advantages of going 120v over 60v, and huge safety disadvantages

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix
Do you want to sell your old pack? Sounds like it's a good one!

yes I certainly plan to,
I would be more comfortable testing its actual capacity on the bench before selling it though
I may be able to get just over 30Ah at the pack level, but I can't see if one cells falls slightly short.

my big tester isn't up and running yet (other projects competing for my time).

I just realised that this might not be as easy as I was hoping.....

You may well need the temp sensors (which are spread throughout the battery), which means a complete dismantling (at least to module level) of the battery. And a complete re-build again at my end! I will not be able to drop a replacement pack into the Vectux without taking the old pack apart to get the temp sensors out! That completely eliminates the benefit which I was trying to achieve: Saving time, keeping the Vectux running until I have a quick-exchange pack ready to be swapped over. The Vectux pack with M-BMS is so complex (and so well secured against rattling and shorting) that it will be a nightmare to dissect it slowly in order to get the temp sensors out. And if I have the 12 modules all apart, I'll feel obliged to add a M-BMS, at least for monitoring purposes. Much thinner cables would make it easier to build than the more fully featured M-BMS, but still a PITA.
//i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk217/Mr_Mik/Vectux/Battery/Battery%20Rework%208%20M-BMS%20with%20Freddy%20access/th_DSC01287.jpg) //i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk217/Mr_Mik/Vectux/Battery/Battery%20Rework%208%20M-BMS%20with%20Freddy%20access/th_DSC01284.jpg) //i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk217/Mr_Mik/Vectux/Battery/Battery%20Rework%208%20M-BMS%20with%20Freddy%20access/th_DSC01256.jpg)

I have not even removed the two 9-cell modules with the weak cells for that reason, although I have two great replacement modules made from AZVectrix' donated cells. And I started riding again this week, don't want to end up missing the Winter riding season. Too hot here in Summer.

So here is another important question for all who are working on a Li battery replacement option: Are the temp sensors really needed? If they are, then you will not be able to sell the old NiMH packs as just two units, to people who would be happy to drop them in, but not happy to re-build an entire battery.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

eyeinthesky
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

If you are selling NmH cells Antiscabs, can I purchase a few blocks (strapped cells)? are you able to capacity test them yet?
email me on kralc [at] dodo.com.au.
Only getting 35klms@60kph at the moment.
And I will looking forward to the day someone will take on converting other bikes, hopefully mine.
also am keenly waiting for a report on real world distance travelled on a lithium pack/p/charge.
What about you Mik?, thought about converting other scooters, (to recoup money spent on yours ;-))
Mainland bound in Aug, keep and eye out for me.

IMG_9217a.jpg
regards Peter

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

...

What about you Mik?, thought about converting other scooters, (to recoup money spent on yours ;-))
Mainland bound in Aug, keep and eye out for me.

...
...

That would be nice to meet in person!

Not converting scooters, but buying really cheap Prius hybrids (the real first generation, NHW10) and fixing their batteries with good success!

Have not sold one, yet, but I needed a car for myself anyway. And my favourite surfboard fits in! There is hope after EV's!!! HAHAHA! I might get around to enjoy something other than tinkering with batteries again.

But for now, it's practically a full time job developing a reliable and sensible method to look after these cars.

By the way, I want antiscabs battery! I saw it first, I saw it first, I saw it first....

But I want the whole thing, including the temp sensors, and that may be a challenge!

If you are just after a few good cells or want to make some modules, ask AZVectrix if he still has some to give away! They are great as far as I can tell. He sent them to me for free, just postage, and that was not cheap from the USA!

I could certainly build tested Vectrix packs if I had enough used packs to find good cells in. It is not easy, but I have learned a lot about it and am getting ever more efficient at (finding a new project that takes up all my time - scratch that!) finding good and bad cells in large packs quickly.

But to get back on topic: I figured out a way to replace the temp sensor boards inside the stock batteries - a while ago! I realised some time in my sleep last night that the temp sensor hack in the Vectux M-BMS could also be used as a replacement for the stock sensors.

I need to look through my records, but IIRC 10kOhm negative coefficient thermistors (about AU$1.- at Jaycar) behave just like the original items....!
I found this by trying to add additional remote sensors to a cheap digital thermometer. Next, I tapped into the cables to the stock Vectux thermistors, and viola, the cheap thermometer was reading them correctly!

The front battery temp sensor board could be replaced by a small board with 6 negative coefficient thermistors. You might also be able to use a single fixed value resistor if you just want to paralyse the stock Vectrix BMS by making it believe it is always 20degC in it's ne battery...Hihihi...

As long as you have some other over and under temp prevention mechanism, you don't need the stock system to give you any trouble.

Similarly, the voltage tabs can easily be simulated! I might have to eat my words (again), but I think this one is dead easy!

A simple voltage divider, connected to positive and negative (Li-)battery terminal, with a 27MOhm, a 48MOhm resistor and another 27MOhm resistor in series between the terminal is all that is needed! Or am I just deluding myself because I want Antiscabs battery???

Maybe smaller resistor values are needed, depends on minimum current draw of the circuit measuring the voltages; you might try 270kOhm, 480kOhm , 27kOhm.

Use whichever highest resistor ladder is tolerated by the Vectrix, and you will have minimised the current draw, and the stock BMS will be the happiest BMS in the world, because it's battery seems always perfectly balanced!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

By the way, I want antiscabs battery! I saw it first, I saw it first, I saw it first....

But I want the whole thing, including the temp sensors, and that may be a challenge!

hahaha, that may actually be possible,
I'll see if the stock hardware complains if the temp sensors aren't giving a signal.

I know Hibba is running without the mid pack sensors and the original charger (so the bars represent voltage now) so ill probably run without temp sensors for a while.
or possibly forever, depends if i get around to them (remember im the guy who has no fuse :p)

i wonder how much it would cost to ship a pack across australia.....(Mik PM me with addy)

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

procrastination inc
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

I'll should be pulling the Nimh pack out of my bike this weekend. Before I do this, I plan on disconnecting the voltage sensing wires on the temp sensor board to check behaviour with no input. I would like to do the same with the temp sensors.

Maybe we can get away without those, then the stock Nimh packs can stay intact.

I don't think mine is worth keeping together though. It's already playing up.

Matt, keep yours together if you can for someone who needs a whole pack.

Maybe their old one could be dissected, good cell salvaged and combined with other good cells from dodgy packs like mine

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