Antiscabs Vectrix

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Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

I'll should be pulling the Nimh pack out of my bike this weekend. Before I do this, I plan on disconnecting the voltage sensing wires on the temp sensor board to check behaviour with no input. I would like to do the same with the temp sensors.

Maybe we can get away without those, then the stock Nimh packs can stay intact.

I don't think mine is worth keeping together though. It's already playing up.

Matt, keep yours together if you can for someone who needs a whole pack.

Maybe their old one could be dissected, good cell salvaged and combined with other good cells from dodgy packs like mine

There is a non-destructive way of testing if it is needed, too: Pull off the connectors! Front and back.

If it still runs and charges well, then you don't need them!

Can anyone tell us if the IC's on the temp sensor board would be hard to replace for a duplicate board? Do they need to be programmed in some way?

Here is a link to photos: http://visforvoltage.org/book/ev-collaborative-hand-books/6747

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

procrastination inc
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

thanks Mik,

I might play with that tomorrow

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

There is a non-destructive way of testing if it is needed, too: Pull off the connectors! Front and back.

If it still runs and charges well, then you don't need them!

indeed, it would be interesting if that little board sends out an error signal if it can't sense any temp wires (sensors disconnected from board)
it would also be interesting to see if anything misses that little board (board disconnected from CAN bus).

im actually tempted to put in normal resistors across that board to trick it into thinking the battery is at ~-10 deg C, so the stock charger gets a CP xxx of around 158v.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

...
...
I need to look through my records, but IIRC 10kOhm negative coefficient thermistors (about AU$1.- at Jaycar) behave just like the original items....! I found this by trying to add additional remote sensors to a cheap digital thermometer. Next, I tapped into the cables to the stock Vectux thermistors, and viola, the cheap thermometer was reading them correctly!

Found it in the schematic: https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=40868

They are indeed 10kOhm thermistors. So it should be quite possible to either get real temperature measurements from 12 places in the bike, or to fool the stock BMS into any battery temperature wanted. How about a trimpot? One could then "dial up" the terminal voltage aimed at by the stock charger depending on how full one wants the Li battery to be. Say 80% for averyday use, 100% for EQ charges and when the full range is needed!

Would that work?

If I think about this much more then I'll start putting in Lithium cells myself.....!

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

I have been playing recently:

03082010026.jpg

03082010027.jpg

03082010028.jpg

I can only fit 39 x 60Ah cells in atm.

with a few more mods im sure i can get that up to 42 cells.

ill report more when its moving
Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

tried it out with 36 cells today.

top speed was around 40kmh....the controllers minimum voltage was holding me back.

trying out 39 cells tomorrow (I had to go out and borrow some from UWA).

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

procrastination inc
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

the fit for 60ah cells looks like I imagined.

chopping the seat, battery box and top cover seem inevitable.

know anyone with a vacuum forming machine? polyethylene battery box cover and abs top cover shouldn't be too hard, might cost a bit to get set up though. The seat is another matter.

Are you running without the temp sensor boards connected?

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

i've decided to ditch the remnants of the fan cover altogether.

I'm now using an aluminium mounting to raise the front of the seat above the cells.

thats allowing me to fit the full 44 cells I was originally plannging too,
and its makes making a new cover watertight simpler as it no longer has to clear anything.

I did ask at a plastics place about plastic welding, their response was the Vectrix panels are a composite plastic and can't be welded to effectively (watertight).

anyway, pictures to follow later in the week.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

R
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Matt, your lithium upgrade is amazing. Please keep us posted with more pictures!

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Its almost finnished.

he bike is back in daily operation, but I have been a bit on the busy side to get more pictures uploaded (im going to be a dad soon).

I rode 100km on a charge yesterday, 50km of that was at 100kmh, another 30km at 80kmh and the rest at 60-70kmh.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Le Concombre Masqué
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Congratulations for this rebirth and for the coming birth !

April 2010 Vectrix VX-1, 2004 Prius (feeded with E85), Giant Suede (electric bicycle)

procrastination inc
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Nice one matt

range at those speeds is awesome :)

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

I sold my original charger to Hibba last night.

As expected by fuel gauge turned into a voltage gauge (220A @ 134v is max power btw)

unexpectedly, all the red flashing warning lights disappeared
the charger it seems looks for the temp sensors and reports an error when it can't find them.
no charger - no warning lights.

another bonus, its looking like the elcon 1500W charger I bought to replace the original charger will fit in the place of the original charger.
Hibba is busy investigating this, and I will have a crack at it myself later in the week :D

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

While you are at it, could you please check if any of the wires going into the charger are "live" with the battery voltage?

If not, then the charger needs to send some signal to switch them in series with the positive and negative battery terminal. Maybe there are relays or contactors on the MC board to do this?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

While you are at it, could you please check if any of the wires going into the charger are "live" with the battery voltage?

If not, then the charger needs to send some signal to switch them in series with the positive and negative battery terminal. Maybe there are relays or contactors on the MC board to do this?

good question, I'll have a look.

Hibba did mention to me something about a live line, but I can't remember what it was :(

oh well, I'll have a look probably on Tuesday.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

While you are at it, could you please check if any of the wires going into the charger are "live" with the battery voltage?

If not, then the charger needs to send some signal to switch them in series with the positive and negative battery terminal. Maybe there are relays or contactors on the MC board to do this?

ahah !
I remember now,
the charger has its own ~13.8v internal powersupply, powered from the mains.

when the mains is present, this power supply goes live, and causes among other things, the MC to shutdown. (it does anyway from CAN info, but this way is included in case the CAN bus is compromised)

I do remember there being a "click" just before the charger starts.
I suspect the relay would be internal to the charger, but I don't know for sure.

The charger does report voltage to the CAN bus independantly to that of the MC while riding.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

AndY1
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Why is no one considering these batteries?

http://www.kokam.com/product/product_pdf/high_power/PL-202_SLPB100216216H_40Ah_Grade.pdf

They are a perfect fit width wise, height wise and length, wise with plenty of room to spare for cooling (more than 0.5 cm between cells). They are able to withstand high charge current (for the regen), high discharge current, higher nominal and max. voltage, so there are only 38 of them needed for the Vectrix.
And with 10-10-18 setup, they are perfect for mid-pack voltage detectors, so that no red light should be lit between operation. With that plenty space left, there is enough room for V's temperature probes and should be able to be charged with V's charger (at 152V, there's 4.0V/cell).

They are 40Ah, so they should be able to work with current charging software setup of max. 33Ah, which wouldn't need constant active balancer. Only occasional balancing with RC charger, which already has incorporated balancer. You can get Graupner Ultramat 16S for 100+ EUR and has integrated 6S balancer. Ok, it takes some time to balance all 38 cells, but that's only needed once in a while, since the +/- 7Ah of tolerance gives a plenty of room to be out of balance.

If I had to do a conversion, I'd do it with these batteries.

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

The original charger is what sends the CAN signal to light the red flashing lights.

The original charger is best dispensed with anyway as the charger profile is wrong, and not easily fixed.

once the original charger is gone, theres no need for the temp sensors, or having to fake them out.

kokams are *really* expensive.

for the same price you could get an 80Ah LiFePO4 pack, that also fits in the same space.
I'll try to dig up the contact details of the manufacturer that makes the pack in the right shape.

the max regen current problem I have been experiencing is more to do with me having to high a nominal pack voltage.
so the 155v max regen voltage gets encountered at only 70-80A.

its a trade off between better acceleration or better regen.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

...
...
its a trade off between better acceleration or better regen.

Matt

I'd take better acceleration any day! There are disk brakes for braking hard if needed.

But could you please explain it some more - how come there is this trade off? Is there no way around it? What dictates the limitations?

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix
...
...
its a trade off between better acceleration or better regen.

Matt

I'd take better acceleration any day! There are disk brakes for braking hard if needed.

But could you please explain it some more - how come there is this trade off? Is there no way around it? What dictates the limitations?

the regen side of things is straight forward:
the charger is programmed to take the pack voltage no higher than 155v.
at 44 cells:
straight off charge, 10A will do it, meaning max braking power of ~1.6kw
10Ah in, 50A will do it, meaning max braking power of ~7.5kw

at 42 cells:
straight off charge 10A will still do it
2Ah in, 100A will do it, just like with nimh.

actual braking power will be higher at the wheel thanks to losses, but you get the picture.

acceleration:
a controller with no unusual acceleration profiles programmed in will be limited powerwise by the max current of the IGBT, and the voltage which the battery sags to.
more cells = more power (though at higher speed).

the vectrix controller additionally restricts acceleration in software at low speed.
Its definition of low seems to be voltage dependent weirdly.

so straight off charge, I get max power of 220A above 136v (still have to get that 200V cycle analyst on)
that happens at 90kmh.
at 80kmh, the MC only draws ~140A (if not restricting itself, it should be ~190A)

10Ah in, I get max power of 220A @ 134v
that happens at 80kmh
at 70kmh, the MC only draws ~110A.

so with the present software, you actually get better acceleration at lower speed with a lower battery voltage.

I'm still looking for a way to derestrict the MC.
if the IGBT really can do 375A/phase, it should be able to pull ~500A (~45kw) from the batteries.

a derestricted MC will give better acceleration all round with a higher battery voltage.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

More news,

I discovered that early versions of the MC firmware aren't as power restricted at low speeds.
I'm going to start trying you progressively older firmware versions till I find one with better acceleration.

its starting to look like I will have to choose between better acceleration or higher top speed....grrr

I finally measured energy usage.
I use 7.9kwh/100km or 79wh/km measured at the powerpoint.

round trip recharge efficiency is ~80% (so energy supplied to MC divided by energy supplied to the charger from the mains).

80km @ 100kmh is very reliabley had
I have been more than 100km on a charge a few times now.

odo has just ticked over 20'000km

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

Mik
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

More news,

I discovered that early versions of the MC firmware aren't as power restricted at low speeds.
I'm going to start trying you progressively older firmware versions till I find one with better acceleration.

its starting to look like I will have to choose between better acceleration or higher top speed....grrr
...
..
...

The big question is why the power was restricted. Maybe it caused MC failures? The IGBTs might fry after a certain number of accelerations.

The older versions must have had a lot more grunt off the line - I spoke with a petrol scooter dealer who had driven a demonstrator Vectrix. His description of the take-off power was very different from what I am experiencing.

This information may be used entirely at your own risk.

There is always a way if there is no other way!

mikemitbike
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

The big question is why the power was restricted. Maybe it caused MC failures? The IGBTs might fry after a certain number of accelerations.

The three phases of the motor are fired one after one. If the motor runs at low speed each phase is fired a longer period and might heat up.
Not dramatically at the moment, but in sum the motor could heat up more as with the power restriction. The same with the IGBT.

Greetings Mike

mikemitbike
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

The big question is why the power was restricted. Maybe it caused MC failures? The IGBTs might fry after a certain number of accelerations.

The three phases of the motor are fired one after one. If the motor runs at low speed each phase is fired a longer period and might heat up.
Not dramatically at the moment, but in sum the motor could heat up more as with the power restriction. The same with the IGBT.

Greetings Mike

Wolfgang
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Hi Antiscabs,

did you remove the two radial fans that cool the NiMH batteries? What's the temperature of your CALB cells? I assume charging is no big deal as you only use a 1,5 kW charger, right?

Anyways does somebody know more about the stock radial fans? I assume they run on 12 V DC. What is their power consumption, what's their air throughput (cfm)?

Rgds
Wolfgang

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

The big question is why the power was restricted. Maybe it caused MC failures? The IGBTs might fry after a certain number of accelerations.

The older versions must have had a lot more grunt off the line - I spoke with a petrol scooter dealer who had driven a demonstrator Vectrix. His description of the take-off power was very different from what I am experiencing.

The rumour goes the power was restricted after a gear set failure was blamed on the motor torque being too high.
on my bike im not worried, as my present version of software goes unrestricted above 80kmh, but my pack voltage is high enough for the MC to still be in motor current limit (IGBT limited)

When I heard this, I thought of the dodgy gear batch.

I have a spare motor if worst comes to worse

The big question is why the power was restricted. Maybe it caused MC failures? The IGBTs might fry after a certain number of accelerations.

The three phases of the motor are fired one after one. If the motor runs at low speed each phase is fired a longer period and might heat up.

The Vectrix controller is true sine wave, and the IGBT is a 6-pack module, rather than discrete components.
The IGBT itself also has significant thermal mass.

This is what separates AC systems from BLDC.

The heating within the IGBT 6-pack is less for 275A @ 0Hz than 275A @ 300Hz (less switching losses at lower frequencies).

anyway, by quirk of where I have mounted my elcon charger, I have to dismount it to open the glove compartment to get to the RS232 port.
so I have yet to actually flash my MC again.

The way the power limit is set is a bit unusual.
The higher the traction pack voltage, the lower the performance at low speed.

So as my battery discharges, the acceleration *improves*.

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

did you remove the two radial fans that cool the NiMH batteries? What's the temperature of your CALB cells? I assume charging is no big deal as you only use a 1,5 kW charger, right?

Yeh, they're long gone.

I don't really measure the pack temperature at all.

Hibba had the temp sensors hooked up on his 40Ah cells, and the temperature would only move a degree or two in either direction during charge/discharge.

When summer comes into earnest, I might invest in an infra-red temp gun, for interests sake.

I actually ended up usign Thundersky cells, as CALB no longer make 60Ah cells in the correct dimensions.

The Elcon "1500W" charger actually refers to the max the ELCON will draw from the mains.
output to the pack is actually ~1200W for most of the charge cycle (8A charge rate).

Matt

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

gasmatt
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Hi all you big boys
Slightly off topic, but please bear with me. (-feel like the new kid at school trying to keep up with the 7th grades...) Recently joined Team Vectrix with an ex-demo '08 Vectrix with 160 miles on the clock & spiked charger. This has been replaced with a Runke charger & the latest software upgrade. Only done 4x5mile journeys with it, had 2x8 hour charges after replacement (Runke) charger 1st fitted (-it had been stored for 6 months after the charger 1st blew) & after 2 trips.
However, has consistently shown yellow wrench & "no ts" after 1st trip. With kill switch off & right (I think) brake pulled, reads 0 degrees, ditto during charging. Feeling on the forums is that this may represent dead/disconnected/inactivated temp sensors. Ambient temp here has been about 6 degrees C here last few days. Last trip had the half of the 17 bars disappearing so that 0 bars showing, red battery symbol showing intermittently & kicking in & out of limp home mode (40k top speed).
Bearing in mind that the charger may be happily plugging away with no reference to the battery pack temp, plus question of deeply discharged pack, I have a few questions to you Wise Ones.

1) What's the correct way to check the pack temp, or better still, temp sensor function (-I'm not hugely mechanical/electrical, but I can safely rewire a plug...)
2) With a low milage bike & battery, an unconditioned battery, plus short journeys with low air temp and awaiting tech/software support, would you use it, or park the bike up?
3) Any idea (beyond an educated guess) what "no ts" actually means?
4) Antiscab may be so unfamiliar with a standard Vectrix, I'm seriously on the wrong thread... ;o)

Thanks for your patience re the whiney new kid, folks

Yours, Matt

antiscab
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

1) What's the correct way to check the pack temp, or better still, temp sensor function (-I'm not hugely mechanical/electrical, but I can safely rewire a plug...)
2) With a low milage bike & battery, an unconditioned battery, plus short journeys with low air temp and awaiting tech/software support, would you use it, or park the bike up?
3) Any idea (beyond an educated guess) what "no ts" actually means?
4) Antiscab may be so unfamiliar with a standard Vectrix, I'm seriously on the wrong thread... ;o)

Hi Matt,

dont worry, I work on normal Vectrix's far more often than I work on my own :)

temperature always reported as 0 deg C definately means neither of your temp sensors are reporting temperatures in the correct format to the CAN bus.

It could mean they are dead and aren't reporting anything at all, or it could mean the RUNKE charger is expecting a new version.

I would ask Vectrix USA (or UK, I forget where you are) how much a new set of temp sensors cost.

It would also be worth while taking the plastic covers off, and seeing if the temp sensors are actually plugged in, more on that later.

low temp is good.
very good.

The main grief you get with nimh is the accelerated self discharge with warm temperatures and high state of charge.
24 deg C is around the temp when the self discharge rate really increases when state of charge is above 60-70%.

I would ride anyway, the charger only uses the temp sensors to set a max charge voltage.
Theres no compensation for self discharge rate anyway.

That only really matters if you ride to red battery light.
If that happens, use a timer to stop the bike from charging fully for the first couple of days.

a full charge from red battery light will normally take 2hours and 45mins approximately.

set the timer to stop the charge after 2 hours.

Matt antiscab

Daily Ride:
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah
Vectrix 60Ah Lithium Tyres Fuel Registration Insurance cycle analyst 2 x TC Charger & MC
conversion

gasmatt
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Re: Antiscabs Vectrix

Brilliant! Thanks for your ultraswift reply. It's had a couple of 8 hour charges, but I'll use a timer from now on, until I get the sensor issue sorted. Currently in Hants UK, so I'll get onto Steve Scott to see if he can source some new sensors, if it comes down to it.. I've tried searching the forum for what/where they plug in, but guess the best thing is to have a ferret around under the plenum cover & employ a little common sense. Any flapping couplings would suggest they didn't get reconnected after the charger installation.
Many thanks, Matt

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