Just an update. The head bearings are still going well and silky smooth.
The weather has started to get quite a bit cooler in the last week and I have noticed some changes in my CHL battery.
I still have 87.6v when hot off the charger but instead of holding 75v or higher under full power (110A) for the first 20Ah or so, I am now seeing down to 73v. Yesterday after 57km and 38Ah under full power I noticed the battery voltage drop to 71.9v just for a bit and of course, the bike felt a little slower. I got home after 41.1Ah and the voltage sat on 76.9v. I am pretty sure this is still all within spec, but I am just wondering what others are getting. My cycle analyst is now showing I have done around 180 cycles on the battery. I think the "freshness" of the battery is wearing off and it is settling into it's new state ready for years of work.
The reason I am concerned is because my e-bike (500w bicycle) has 223 cycles and has dropped from 30Ah to around 23Ah. I think a cell must be dead.
Come on CHL! Where's this 72v BMS!
eRider 8000w Scooter - PDT Version
72v 50AH CHL battery
350A Sevcon controller
24km: Delivered - 24 September 2011
2490km: Installed dual 35w HID lights Bi-Xenon Projectors - 27 November 2011
8313km: Installed BMS -
Come on CHL! Where's this 72v BMS!
It seems like they are having big problems getting the active BMS to work reliably, I got an e-mail from Mountain and got the feeling they are more or less giving it up. He is sending me the old passive BMS for now.
I would appreciate if you could contact your Erider dealer and ask him if he has got the same info.
I second Johnny J's hunch. Mountain and his folks are not happy with the reliability of the 24 cell inductive BMS system and thus will not send it out to customers. Rather fit a passive system in the mean time!
As for voltage sag of CHL chemistry too when the temperatures drop, your V-drop ist still very minor. Wait till you get to freezing temp. and report back then. +5°C would also be quite interesting already :-) That is where my freshly charged 40Ah GBS will easily drop to 63V and below. But then my maximum currents may be slightly higher than those of your heavily reigned-in Sevcon. I will be able to report on this soon as my CA is now successfully integrated into my Thunder :-) A report with pics is to follow in the next days on the integration.
2017 Zero S ZF6.5 11kW, erider Thunder 5kW
@ Johnny - Yes I have heard that erider will be receiving the passive BMS as they are having trouble with the active ones. Oh well, any BMS is better than no BMS.
@ MEroller - The temperature the other morning was around +10c so it was very cold for me. It dropped to just +1c here last night and on my trip into work today I was stuck behind a smelly, noisy 50cc scooter and got to blast past him!! Wow, I left him for dead!
Then when I got to the lights, a 200cc suzuki burgman pulled up beside me so I decided to race him, he had a bit more pull from 0kmh but after 30kmh we were pretty much accelerating at the same pace which really surprised me with all the noise his scooter was making!!! I've seen my wife move a LOT faster than me from the lights so she might have been able to keep up. I was only a ble to pull around 108Amps because the voltage this morning was hanging around 75v under full power.
I did notice the other night when it was VERY cold and on my way home up a giant hill, at full power my voltage was sitting around 72v but here's the odd thing... the amps blasted up to 130 to 160 Amps!! I've never seen the Cycle Analyst say 10.6Kw before!! So I think Erider have programmed the sevcon to output around 8000w regardless of the volts. I wonder why it let 130Amps go through? I'm not complaining, but It didn't feel much more powerful. I check the CA when I got home and had a Vmin=71.9v and a Amax=184Amps!! It must have done that for a split second? That's 13.23Kw!! My ride into work this morning was the same, maxing out around 7900watts to 8200watts. I prefer range over speed anyway.
My 4000li is at 9074 miles without BMS. With all of the problems I keep hearing about BMS I wonder if it is worth the complexity? My range is still really good at around 40+ miles with a mixture of hill climbing and stop and go. I plan to add a cycle analyst next to monitor my cell pack more closely as the miles continue to climb. We are just now coming into the riding season in Phx AZ.
I'm a Spanish owner of a Bereco Voltio 6.500 watt Plugin. It's the same motorbike that you are speaking about (and the same that is named Tokyo iEdison...in Europe), so I'm very happy for having find you. Afer a few months (tree) of good results (80 km/h; 70 Km autonomy, in hi-speed mode), and a pair of cells changed, the battery has failed. I can't go over 15 Km with no acceleration and over 50 Km/h. It's very dangerous for me because I need to travel by road.
The seller has promised me that they are going to change the hole battery becouse there is a problem with the actual battery all over the world. (They are the yellow Thunder sky) But...I don't know if it is the truth, moreover I'm convinced that this won't be the only problem that I will have with my e-scooter.
I'm very interesting in knowing wath I have under my legs...(my other motorbike is a Harley Davidson 1300cc) and how to deal with it.
If I can help you in any way tell me, I would be an active member because I think that there is a lot of things that we can do for improving ours motorbikes.
Best regards and a lot of miles
I have the same problem. Initially I tought that it was a wind-effect, or worst, a problem with the forke. Personally I think that this chinesse motorbikes are made of dreadful materials (The same motorbike in ICM version: http://www.arpem.com/motos/modelos/aiyumo/modelos-08/aiyumo-nassau-125.html cost only 1.200 €), so...
I've changed the throttle (it stuck and changed the regenative brake suddenly), the complete front brake system, the bulbs don't illuminate enough, a pair of cells died, and now the hole battery are so drained that I hardly can drive 15 km. And of course it seems have no shock absorbers (my weight is 90 Kg).
But in despite of all I'm delghted whit it. I drove 4.500 Km and the sensation is fantastic. My hope is improve it. I've read all your comments and I agree whit you in most of them. The idea of the cycle anlyst is great! I'm waiting that the guarantee expires for doing a lot of things.
If I can help you in anyway tell me
Best regards from Spain
...and a lot of happy miles
I went to Guangzhou, China last week and that was a REAL eye opener. Just about every bicycle and motorbike was electric over there! They even had full sized electric busses! But the entire city was blanketed in pollution! I had no idea it was so bad. That part of the world is a bleak look into the future everywhere if we continue to use petrol power.
But anyway, this morning was the coldest morning I have EVER ridden my scooter in. I left it on charge for the week I was away in China. I knew it was cold, maybe 1°c and under full power these CHL cells were dipping down to 72v right off the charger and even down to 71.1v after just a few kilometers! This is the worst performance I have had with these CHL batteries. The cycle analyst said I hit a low of 70.9v at 168A. But even with the voltage drop, I didn't detect any drop in performance of the motor. My bike has now done 5960km! I am guessing this is ok, and that it was just struggling with the cold weather, my fingers were cold too!
Yes, the true performance of the CHL at cold temps (and I mean sub freezing with cold) will be interesting to see. I have heard from the German unpacker and assembler of E-Sprit that the only vehicle that worked when we had our turn at arctic temps. (below -20°C in some places) this winter was his CHL-equipped Fury (Thunder), no gas-pwered car nor motorcycle (two each) worked anymore. He saw a minimum of around 69V at 160A that time - which is extremely impressive for more than 3C discharge current at such low temperatures!!! That is waht my 40Ah GBS drop to at +10°C He said impedance-wise the CHL cells also show considerable variations, but their chemistry appears to excel at high discharge currents, no matter what the individal cell impedance. Oh boy, I wish I could have had 50ah CHL ins the stomach of my Thunder :-(
Well it was about 11 degrees celcius after work tonight when I left to come home. I decided to take the "scenic route" to clock up 6000km! When I got back to my poor cold bike, the battery was sitting on 79.9v and under full power was only dipping to 73.7v even at full throttle going 90ish uphill in a 100kmh zone. So the good news is that I think the batteries are fine, they just don't like the cold. It's reassuring to see other posts saying different brands like GBS dip to around 65v or below in the cold. I'm not there yet and hopefully never will be. I even saw a post saying CHL cells only dipped to 69v at 160A at -20 celcius!!
Hundreds of new cell CHL sent to E-sprit last month,you may upgrad from them if you want !
Which is why there are now hundreds of really cheap surplus 40Ah GBS cells sitting somewhere in southern Germany or northern Austria :-)
I have payed WAY too much for my Fury/Thunder by now that I will wring whater life I can out of my 24 GBS before I dare tear apart my scoot again :(
Update: 6034.8km 9 May 2011
My first real breakdown :-(
After dropping off my broken Samsung video camera to get fixed, I headed back home and at 70km/h I lost all power. I could sometimes start the bike but after a few inches it would die again. The LED connected to the Sevcon controller was saying it had a hall sensor fault and the digital display was flashing all 10 fuel bars on and off. I changed to the other one which has blown up before which still didn't work. So I had to call road service and get towed back home.
Here's the odd thing. Once I got home and got the bike off the truck, it started working fine again and I couldn't fault it. But I had noticed an odd thing, I no longer need to hit the start button to start the bike now. It now seems that maybe the motor hall sensors are gone or the PDT computer box has died again. The after sales support really is good here in Australia I must say.
That sure sounds like the CAN-controller going berzerk. I don't know about this additional intelligence, but also additional complexity, if in the end it is more a blessing or a curse. When I read of all the Vectrix woes, hear Peugeot was/is struggling with CAN communication issues on their E-Vivacity , and these PDT troubles too, I am strongly led to believe that I am better off with no CAN at all on my bike - and let my BMS, CA and my brain and hands be the intelligence to ensure the longevity of my bike...
That sure sounds like the CAN-controller going berzerk
The Hall sensors are measured directly by the Sevcon controller
Although the Sevcon has CAN-bus, there is no real CAN-bus on that scooter....
its more likely the Sevcon itself has gone haywire, given the fault codes it's giving
2007 Vectrix, modified with 42 x Thundersky 60Ah in July 2010. Done 194'000km
UPDATE: 15 May 2012
Well the scooter is still working with my TIM box. The TIM box is a small box made by PDT. The scooter works but now no longer requires me to hit the START button to start the bike (the GO light comes on by itself).
I swapped in my Wife's TIM box and the bike works as normal. I need to hit the start button to activate the GO light. So I am now riding my bike again with my TIM box with my wife's TIM box as a spare under the seat (just incase).
I rode into work this morning, the coldest damn ride I've EVER done! It was -4.9 celcius! I did notice a BIG drop in voltage as I rode, for example on the on-ramp to the main road I open the throttle FULL to get up to 80 km/h (real speed) quickly. I didn't notice any loss in power or acceleration but as I looked at the Cycle Analyst I saw my voltage instead of 73.9v at full power, up this on-ramp I saw 70.9v!! It was pulling around 116A so it seems the controller will pull more amps when the voltage drops to keep the 8000w. I got to work fine without any problems.
So it IS your (CAN-bus-connected) PDT box again, as I suspected :-) If your battery also dropped to -4.9°C, then your voltage drop at 116A ist still lightyears less than my 24 GBS can accomplish. They dropped down to 63V at that battery temp. and not even 116A...
Isn't your living room right behind the door to the porch you park your scoots on? I highly recommend letting yours stay in the living room overnight to have a warm (and powerfull) battery in even colder weather! And I recommend some windproof clothing over your motorcylce gear and a set of warmer gloves with maybe two fingers in one cavity to keep you yourself better inuslated against the cold :-)
As for higher current at lower temp., copper has a rather steep positive thermal resistivity coefficient, so the Ohm resistance of your motor coils and cables is considerably lower at -5°C than when they heat up to 100°C or more. However, the Sevcon may develop it's own ideas depending on temperature, and that could go in both directions, depending on the programming philosophy.
Interesting read MRroller. Unfortunately I only have a little 2 bedroom unit and the "porch" where I charge the bikes is the only place I have available. To make matters worse, when we use the reverse cycle air-conditioner, the box outside blows FREEZING cold air right into the bike while it gets nice and warm inside. I have put a box between the aircon unit and the bike to deflect some of that air.
It was -6C this morning and fog I could barely see 30m infront of me! The bike once performed great and I only had a minimum voltage of 72.2v this morning when I got to work.
63V!!! Really?! I thought that would hit the low voltage cut-off. That's 2.625v per cell (i hope) thats getting very close to 2.5v. If you EVER hit 60v I recommend you let off the throttle otherwise you could kill a cell.
No worries. The Kelly will shut off at 60V, but that has never happened, as I DO have a BMS in place with balancers on every cell that will shut off the battery as soon as one of them hits 2.5V. Just two days ago this actually happened with still 72V under load (about 2/3ds depleted Battery), which is getting me worried that I might have a single problem cell somewhere in the depths of my battery bay...
Interesting, a reverse cycle air-conditioner for heating too - and cooling the scoot on the porch :-( But your CHL seem to be decent enough even for lower temps. Maybe an insualted cover for the bike could conserve some of the warmth from the day before and additionally serve as a windbreaker for the heat exchanger of your aircon system?
I have ridden my Thunder in as low as 0 C (because of the risk of skidding I preffer above +4c really).
The GBS cells, now when Ihave replaced the faulty one and have 24 working ones, has been down as low as 67V under full acc.
I am not too worried, the lead-acid-batteries i had on my old electric scooter were much worse when cold.
The accelereation is ok though, havent really noticed any major difference.
I have a cell BMS, which supposedly will cut off at 2.5V.
Update: 30/5/2012 @ 6484.6km
Even since my PDT box had a hiccup I have done 449.8km without a single problem. It seems the PDT box may have lost CAN-BUS communications for a split second. But for whatever reason, I now have faith back in my scooter. Riding to work, doctors, shops, friends houses, paintball, everywhere!
This morning was terrible. Ice on the grass as I left home and fog so thick I had like 50m visability. The weather app on my iphone said it was -3c but it felt a LOT colder than that. Still, accelerating at full power on the onramp which is uphill and getting up to 80km/h my battery dipped to 71.7v. Which is odd because earlier in the week when there was no fog it dipped to 70.8v. But once I am at 80km/h and take the throttle back to 80% the voltage jumps back up and stays around 73.9v with 60-80A. This is still uphill. Then when I turn onto the main road still 80km/h, it flattens out and I can keep 80km/h using around 40A and voltage gets back up to 76v until I reach the city and slow to 50km/h. So my 6.6km trip uses about 4.8Ah on a cold day, and about 4.2Ah on a warm day. But if you drive with WOT you will use about 5.2Ah.
My wife has nearly hit 2000km and she has had no problems at all. Just clearing the odd spider web here and there ;-)
I have been driving quite much lately and only encountered a minor problem.
3 times the scooter has "cut out" and I had to turn the ignition off and back on again.
All 3 times is has been either on hard acceleration or at top speed.
A theory is it could be the Sevcon that cuts the power when it misses a hall sensor signal.
Phil, I really think that leaving your bike outside at night in freezing temps is going to shorten the life of those cells. I could be wrong. I feel bad making mine sleep in the garage. :0
11,000 miles (18,333 km) and counting. Zero problems. 40+ mile range.
Apparently it's the charging of LiFePO4 cells at sub-freezing cell temperatures that shortens their life, not storage or discharge (as long as the higher impedance is taken into account by more gentle throttle usage) at sub-freezing temps. And if charged right at sub-freezing temps. even that can be done without hurting the cells. But it requires a special charger with cell temperature monitoring and it would have to start charging in a very docile manner, slowly increasing charge current as the cell temperature increases.
Update: 6685km. 8 June 2012
This morning it was absolutely freezing cold at -8°c (17°F). The grass was white, the sky was grey and my skin was blue and the bike was frozen! I was a bit worried when I looked at the cycle analyst, but low and behold, it read 87.6v and -0.18Ah so it had fully charged, plus an extra 0.18Ah. So I reset it and headed off to work. Everything just worked as normal as always. So very impressed. Under full power I could still easily get up to 80km/h using 130Amps and the voltage dropped to 70.3v. But once at 80km/h it only took 5.1Kw to hold the speed up the slight hill and the voltage bounced back up to 74v where it likes to sit when it's cold. Once I got to work and turned the bike off, the battery sat on 78.1v at rest. I just checked it before I rode home for lunch and it was sitting on 79.9v. Another 22km after lunch I have parked it at the mall which now have lots of new power points, so I'm now charging it for free with their full permission. :-)
Anyway, just wanted to share this story and the photo of my frozen bike. The ice is on the outside of the headlight, not inside.
Yes, that is what my bike looked like frequently over the winter here :-) But your voltages - awsome!!!! I think it's time to get REAL jealous again ;-)
But what on earth is that Apple "apple" doing on your front fairing LOL ?
Hi MEroller. The apple sticker came with my iPhone. Didn't have anywhere else to put it? No way I'd put a Microsoft sticker on the thing, it would probable crash. Lol
Scooter has been going great. I've been working on my home built electric dirtbike project "Scrappy" over the past few days. I'm using the same CHL 50Ah cells on that bike too.
I've been working on my home built electric dirtbike project "Scrappy" over the past few days. I'm using the same CHL 50Ah cells on that bike too.
I can't blame you for that :-) But still no working BMS for your CHL's?
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