ERider 8000W scooter - Australia (similar to xm5000li)

BIG UPDATE! 14/10/2012 @ 8313.9km

I FINALLY got some time to install the BMS on my scooter. I've been dreading this for quite some time as I knew it would be a big job, and as requested, I took lots of photo's along the way. My first task was to test each and every wire on that BMS plug to make sure all 25 wires worked and that none of them were short circuited!

After I did this, I stripped down the bike to the bare bones to attach all of those sensor wires. The CHL batteries come standard with 6mm square push on connectors especially for BMS wires! So I cut off all of those round connectors and put on all new RED square push on connectors.

Then I found that according to the Schematic provided a few posts ago that "P-" "B-" and "Out-" from the BMS ALL connect to battery negative, they all had different connectors so I chopped them off and put on proper round connectors and connected to battery negative. This makes me wonder if this BMS can NOT turn off the charger if required. The information about this BMS is quite terrible and sketchy. Also looking at the schematic it looks like "Kout" is to be wired in PARALLEL with the normal key switch, this is pointless because the BMS could not turn off the controller if something went wrong because the KEY would still be closing the circuit. So I found another point to break 12v to kill the controller.

Now I had to install a new 12v connector on the BMS as the supplied connector had no partner in the wiring loom.

So now the fun bit starts, CAREFULLY connecting up all those BMS wires.

Now, fully installed. Time to test all of the cell voltages EASILY!! The holes are a perfect fit for my multimeter probes!! Yay!


Here were my cell voltages after an overnight charge and about 3 hours off charge while working on bike
Cell 1: 3.45v
Cell 2: 3.46v
Cell 3: 3.45v
Cell 4: 3.49v
Cell 5: 3.46v
Cell 6: 3.49v
Cell 7: 3.46v
Cell 8: 3.46v
Cell 9: 3.45v
Cell 10: 3.45v
Cell 11: 3.34v
Cell 12: 3.39v
Cell 13: 3.42v
Cell 14: 3.45v
Cell 15: 3.44v
Cell 16: 3.44v
Cell 17: 3.45v
Cell 18: 3.46v
Cell 19: 3.34v
Cell 20: 3.41v
Cell 21: 3.48v
Cell 22: 3.39v
Cell 23: 3.44v
Cell 24: 3.44v

To me this seems pretty bloomin good considering I've done 8313.9km over 13 months with NO BMS installed. But cells 11 and 19 looks a little flatter than the rest at 3.34v each.

Here you can see where I have installed the BMS. I have mounted it inbetween the front frame and it fits perfectly. Just 4 zip ties hold it in place perfectly so theres no moving or bumping. It's like it was meant to go there because it sits fluch so the plastic cover will still go one easily.

TESTING BMS...
Ok so I've done my job of installing the BMS, now to test it. I turn on the bike and you can hear a relay 'click' inside the BMS and the bike turns on as normal. If I dis-connect 12v from the bms you hear a 'click' and it opens the "Kout" wires and turns off the controller...Good. I then plug 12v back in and it turns the controller back on...Good. I pull the white connector with 12 wires from the cells and it turns off the controller, and it does the same if I pull the other large white connector with cell wires.

BUT.....here's my problem. I tried to simulate a single cell hitting 0v but disconnecting cell 23 sensor wire...NOTHING?! I then pulled cell 22, NOTHING, 21, 20, 19, 18 still nothing?!?!?!?! It still kept the controller ON!!

So at this stage I am a bit worried that the BMS is NOT doing it's job correctly if it doesn't turn off the controller is a single cell hits low voltage!

Has ANYONE installed this BMS? Can they tell me why the BMS will NOT turn off the controller when I pull a single sensor wire? The pack voltage was still around 82v but that shouldn't matter if a single cell hits 0v surely?

Confused?

Anyway, I re-assembled the bike and found it wasn't working anymore?!?! Weird things were happening, the motor would spin for about 1/2 second then die, the LCD fuel gauge would dim and reset when hitting the brake levers, blinkers would flash one and no more??? Long story short, I found out it was the 20A fuse AFTER the 12v DCDC converter. So if you suffer those sort of weird things, check the 12v 20A fuse.

TEST RIDE OF DEATH (with BMS)

After work today I decided to ride the bike with my newly installed BMS to see if a cell would die or if the BMS would protect the battery.

I went for a long drive after work driving mostly at full throttle. I was not giving ANY consideration into fuel economy.

Long story short I noticed around 43Ah used my pack voltage started to sag below 70v when I pulled a bit more than 6kw. At 45Ah I noticed the power of the scooter had dropped. It would still accelerate but at a slower pace. I also noticed when I was at a set of traffic lights my pack voltage was at 75v!!! The lowest I've EVER seen it! Now I was getting worried as I was still about 5km from home.

I turned into the final street towards home. A nice 60kmh zone, I glided downhill easily but when I started heading uphill, I saw the pack voltage hit 67v, then 66v, then BANG!! I had lost power!! BUT, the good news is.....I heard the relay "CLICK" inside the BMS unit. The controller LED was off but the instrument panel was still on. After about 10 seconds I heard the relay "CLICK" again and I had power back. But now my pack voltage with NO-LOAD was sitting at 70.2v!! I performed a U-turn and slowly headed UP the hill to my house, only 50m now....CLICK. BMS shut me down again. I turned the bike on and off, nothing...then CLICK, I was in action again. Not wanting to walk my bike, I drove the bike at 10 - 15kmh and turned into my driveway with pack voltage reading 71.1v

I quickly ran inside and got a multi-meter and proceeded to read the voltages of all the cells to see how many (if any) had died. The controller has a 60v low voltage cut-off so because the BMS cut me off at 66v it goes to show you can't rely on LVC.

I rode 66.4km and used 48.90Ah. Here are my cell voltages after the ride and after 10 minutes rest (getting multi-meter and chair)

Pack voltage 71.9v no load

Cell 1: 3.05v
Cell 2: 3.02v
Cell 3: 3.04v
Cell 4: 3.04v
Cell 5: 3.03v
Cell 6: 3.02v
Cell 7: 3.04v
Cell 8: 3.05v
Cell 9: 3.06v
Cell 10: 3.05v
Cell 11: 3.03v
Cell 12: 3.03v
Cell 13: 2.98v
Cell 14: 3.03v
Cell 15: 3.05v
Cell 16: 3.04v
Cell 17: 3.05v
Cell 18: 3.05v
Cell 19: 3.00v
Cell 20: 3.02v
Cell 21: 3.06v
Cell 22: 3.04v
Cell 23: 2.50v
Cell 24: 2.97v

So it looks like cell 23 hit 2.50v so the BMS did its job!

WOOHOO!!!
As I write this, my bike is just about finished charging and has recharged from 48.90Ah back down to 0Ah and beyond by 0.23AH. So the battery has been TOTALLY refilled.

Update: 16 Oct 2012 @ 8435.4km

After my long ride until BMS shut down yesterday. I let it charge overnight while I slept. I woke up this morning to a battery pack at 87.6v and reading -0.72Ah.

I went for another long ride after work today and managed to get 68.1km and consumed 48.25Ah. I got home this time without BMS shut down. I still had around 70.1v under normal acceleration and down to 69.7v under full throttle even though I had used 48.25Ah. Much better.

I got home and tested all the cell voltages again and all of them range from 3.08v to 3.10v EXCEPT cell 23 which reads 2.70v. So this tells me that cell 23 is my weakest. When I get a chance, after a FULL charge I will charge cell 23 by itself with my single cell charger. But still, 48.25Ah from a 50Ah cell is pretty good by my books.

Once I top up cell 23 I don't think I will drain the pack until BMS cutoff because hitting 2v is a bit low in my opinion. I would rather the BMS shut down at 2.5v

But anyway. It's now 11:30pm and the bike has just finished charging and it reads -0.08Ah. Ill see what it says in the morning. It seems this centralized BMS doesn't balance the cells.

My mistake. By bad cell 23 stops after 48.90Ah.

But in saying that I will top charge it by itself on the weekend. When I get a chance ill post my cell voltages after an overnight charge. I think it may be doing top balancing because I got up this morning and my CA had risen to -0.79Ah which means the charger pumped in an extra 0.71Ah while I was sleeping.

I'm sure that it has top end shunt balancing.
What do you think about the "P-" to charger as I wrote above?
Did you get my e-mail?

Yes I got your email Johnny. There's so much conflicting info. I wish they made an English manual for this BMS. You may very well be able to connect P- to the charger minus but I'm happy with it the way it is. As long as it can shut down the bike on a low cell I'm happy. But according to an email from Mountain I have wired it all up correctly? I have a Chinese friend at work so ill get him to read that manual for me.

So I have finished a full charge after work and here are my cell voltages

Cell 1: 3.73v
Cell 2: 3.63v
Cell 3: 3.69v
Cell 4: 3.65v
Cell 5: 3.71v
Cell 6: 3.67v
Cell 7: 3.68v
Cell 8: 3.63v
Cell 9: 3.77v
Cell 10: 3.71v
Cell 11: 3.60v
Cell 12: 3.76v
Cell 13: 3.52v
Cell 14: 3.76v
Cell 15: 3.62v
Cell 16: 3.77v
Cell 17: 3.76v
Cell 18: 3.71v
Cell 19: 3.44v
Cell 20: 3.62v
Cell 21: 3.76v
Cell 22: 3.66v
Cell 23: 3.34v
Cell 24: 3.36v

So I will try and charge cells 23, 24, 19 and 13 manually.

Ok so my charger just finished charging cell 23. It took nearly 2 hours but it put in 2.36Ah

Hi all,

After charging cell 23 manually last night I went for another long ride. This time I got 72.3km and used 50.27Ah and still no BMS shut down. I'm very impressed. So here are the voltages after my ride.

Cell 1: 2.89v
Cell 2: 2.82v
Cell 3: 2.87v
Cell 4: 2.86v
Cell 5: 2.84v
Cell 6: 2.82v
Cell 7: 2.86v
Cell 8: 2.87v
Cell 9: 2.89v
Cell 10: 2.88v
Cell 11: 2.85v
Cell 12: 2.85v
Cell 13: 2.74v
Cell 14: 2.84v
Cell 15: 2.87v
Cell 16: 2.86v
Cell 17: 2.88v
Cell 18: 2.89v
Cell 19: 2.79v
Cell 20: 2.83v
Cell 21: 2.90v
Cell 22: 2.86v
Cell 23: 2.76v
Cell 24: 2.72v

So it looks like cell 23 is more in balance with the rest of the pack now.
Cell 13 and 24 are the lowest. But since I'm getting over 50Ah out of them I'm happy to keep it the way it is.

I will upload a photo when I get on the Mac.

UPDATE 19 October 2012 @ 8513.3Km

Here's the photo from my big 50.27Ah ride yesterday...

Here you can see I have done 72.5Km on this battery charge, my STANDING voltage is 67.8V and I have consumed 50.27Ah!! Under normal acceleration I could still pull around 95A but the voltage would DROP to around 62v!!! The lowest I've EVER seen so I wasn't comfortable going full throttle.

I was SO happy when I plugged the bike in to charge, within about 30 seconds the voltage had bounced up to 75v. I woke up this morning after letting it charge all night and once again, the voltage was sitting nicely at 87.6v and the CA read -0.76Ah so it had charged all the way from +50.27Ah down to zero and 0.76Ah past. My ride into work was great, pulling 113A and only dropping to 74.4v the bike nearly felt a bit faster. But now that I have done all this testing I don't plan on doing it unless needed because draining that much may shorten the battery life.

So I'm happy to say at least these CHL batteries now have some low voltage cell protection.

Oh and here is a photo of me charging cell 23 manually using my "Swallow DC charger" from my RC car racing days. It has a Lithium battery setting. I set it for 5A (maximum it can do) but when I started charging cell 23 it had already dropped to 1.42A because the charger saw it was nearly full and was in CV mode and the current kept dropping bit by bit until it was full. I really like this big round connector, it makes monitoring the cell voltages very easy, plus if I need to top up a cell I just need to put in some leads.

UPDATE: BMS installed onto a Thunder PDT scooter. 27/10/2012

It was a nice sunny day and I thought it would only take 4 hours to install the BMS...Boy was I wrong.
It took me about an hour to test the BMS cable and organise the wires into groups 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17-20, 21-24 and cable 0 by itself. And to identify 6 and 9 because both look similar.

Anyway, it was a smooth operation as I had done this to my bike a few weeks ago. After I stripped the bike down to it's bare bones, I actually like the design a little better because it's easier to get to the cells. Once all the wires were connected, I tested the voltage of all the cells. The bike has done 6559km without ANY BMS but the customer had kept a detailed log and rarly used more than 37Ah. EVERY SINGLE cell was sitting at 3.29v after 35.67Ah had been consumed!! Wow!! perfect balance. Makes my battery look bad now :-) Clicking through the Cycle analyst I see he averaged 86km/h and hit a top speed on 94.5km/h to get to my house 42km away. The Vmin was only 72.3v!

Here is the bike before I started

BMS cord after I connected 24 red plugs

Pulling apart the Thunder

Pulled out the rubber mat covering the CHL cells

Cells before BMS wires

Cells after the BMS wires

Connecting the Kout wires, they split the YELLOW wire and have matching connectors to open the Yellow wire to kill the controller if something goes wrong. Also connecting the 12v plug to a matching connector right next to the Yellow wire. The 12v Green/Black plug, the Green is NEGATIVE and the BLACK is positive?! It matches the BMS fine.

BMS fully installed upside down and large connector next to it. There was very little space left as the seat bucket just touches the BMS as it is.

BMS now installed and the ODO reads 6559km

All finished.

I started working on the bike at 10am pretty much on the dot, and only stopped for 5 minutes to have lunch, and finished putting the last screw in at 5pm. So it took pretty much 7 hours!! It's a pretty big job. Installing the BMS push on connectors only takes about 10 minutes, connecting Kout and 12v maybe 2 minutes, all the ground wires maybe 2 minutes, the rest is assembly, disassembly and placing the parts and testing. The best thing of all is there were no left over screws thanks to my meticulous laying out of screws and connectors.

I test rode the bike blasting full throttle up to 44Ah consumed and only dropping to 70.5v. Perfect. I actually really like the suspension on this bike.

There is a 72v 10A charger (87.6v peak) onboard this Thunder. It is fitted nice and snug underneath the metal bracket holding the controller and Cycle Analyst shunt. It's a bit hard to see in this photo, but it is the gold coloured box underneath the metal bracket. Oh and as for the seat bucket, yes it screws and mounts on that cross-bar, but then it dips WAY down nearly to the batteries to make up the deep helmet storage area.

UPDATE: 6 November 2012 @ 8638km

Something odd is happening with my bike. I have noticed over that last 2 days that my voltage is only sagging to 76.9v under full throttle! This is obviously a GOOD thing! I'm not sure if it the warmer weather or if it's because of the BMS. But this morning on my way to work, I opened up the throttle 100% and it accelerated quite well and I notived I was only pulling between 95 to 105 Amps. Then I noticed the voltage was sitting around 76.9 to 77.2v!! But I notice the power was still around the 8000w mark. I thought maybe because it was only after 1.8Ah from home. Then after work I had to do some erins and then on my way home, after 12Ah of usage, I was still holding 76.9v under full throttle!! And then again this morning the same thing happened. I can't believe the voltage drop to be so small. 80.0v at rest and 76.9v at full throttle!

Either way, I'm pretty impressed!