Vectrix Lithium conversion kit V2 - with some CALB 70AH shoe horned in

Oops, I mean this is the kit nearly finnished installation on a Vectrix:

This is how the kit will look as shipped (with the old nimh battery container as a packing material):

This is a direct link to the picture album:
http://s283.photobucket.com/albums/kk316/antiscab/

okay, more information on the kit:

Included is:
fwx 200A fuse
42 x CM060 BMS modules + blue box
plastic cover and spacers
battery interconnects
noalox battery paste
pre-charge light bulb
Aluminium seat bracket
stick on foam tape (to be used where the plastic meets the aluminium frame)

What you will also need to buy:
cycle analyst
50mV 100A shunt
42 x CALB SE70Ah or WB60AH cells (not sure yet whether the CA70Ah cells will fit)
silicone sealant (water proof variety)

what you will need to extract from the parts removed from the Vectrix:
anderson connectors
the hook from the fan cover
the back plastic from the fan cover

What tools you will need:
torque limited drill
USB-CAN Cable
socket set
screw driver set
wire cutters
automotive crimper
soldering iron

and finally the price:
This version of the kit is US$2500 + shipping

As usual, payment is by paypal, US$1250 on ordering, and the remainder when ready to ship

I have one kit ready to go, and most of the bits ready for two more (lead time on those two is 3-4 weeks)

after that, lead time is 8 weeks

The video is still a work in progress, hopefully I can get it done this weekend

Matt

And modification charger to charge 70ah?

Thats what you need the USB-CAN adapter for - to load a version of firmware The Laird wrote to allow the charger to fully charge a 70AH battery

Looks a bit awkward to ride :)

^^^forget that...only first photo showed up initially!

Not sure why the first post only had the one photo, but oh well

I was just reading the specs on CALBs new CA series of cells:

Only the older CALB SE70Ah cells will fit and the CALB SE60Ah will not

but the new CA series, only the 60Ah cells fit but not the 70Ah

its all about the cell width, 115mm is what is needed.

Matt

just as I'm thinking about this,

THe fuel guage with The version of firmware that allos charging of the 70Ah cells does not yet work, however, the voltage is shown while riding

at least one of the people who have purchase this new kit is planning on relying on that and not installing a cycle analyst

While I don't recommend riding with no Ah count, keeping an eye on pack voltage only may work ok
The risk is the bike won't stop you from overdischarging the cells, but the voltage sagging below 120v while riding is where you would stop

Matt

I am using The Lairds software for a while now and I never look at the fuel gauge anymore. I only look at the voltage readout now. At 130V I go into conservative mode and at 120V I consider it empty tank.

It made me think that the fuel gauge might as well be used as Voltage gauge also the same way it does when the charger fails.

So full discharge is ??? 102v?

that sorta works, except most of the capacity in a good pack will be between 125 and 130vdc
on the fuel guage when working as a volt guage, that represents 2 bars - not really enough to be meaningful

full discharge is between 115v and 125v - the reason I say between is you should stop when the first cell is depleted, but you can't tell from pack voltage alone as a single cell reversing only causes a voltage drop of 1.5v

best practice is to measure the capacity of the smallest cell and scale the fuel guage AH count to that amount

The problem is actually worse with the lithium kit, as the voltage stays the same for most of the discharge.

So the voltage readout will give you an idea when you should stop, but no prior warning that an AH based fuel would
That's why I recommend the cycle analyst

Matt

Looking at the pictures again I see only 20 CALB cells in the top layer. Are there 22 in the bottom layer?

Yes, thats correct

Also, would another stacking method work for cells with more than 115mm width but less depth?
I was just looking at those 100Ah cells from the other thread and they might fit 5x3 laying and 3 high gives 45 cells.

Crazy idea or possible?

That could work, as long as those cells don't mind being on their sides

The same approach could be used for WINA 100Ah cells

CALB would appear to no longer make the SE 70Ah cells, which is a shame.

I have found this cell that has the same dimensions though: http://www.ev-power.eu/WINA-30Ah-100Ah/WINA-LiFePO4-Power-3-2V-72Ah-aluminium-case.html

72Ah so even a slight increase in capacity.

Matt

I haven't tried the 100Ah cells yet - getting them into Australia is too expensive unless I find someone else already buying a large quantity from the same manufacturer.

I wouldn't mind trying the 100Ah cells for my next vectrix
My vectrix is has a worn head bearing. Once I get to 100'000km I plan to convert my spare vectrix.

The CALB 60Ah and 66Ah cells are a good shape

Here's a CALB CA 60Ah conversion (which I wasn't involved with):
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13501-lithium-conversion-continued

Here's a CALB CA 66Ah conversion in progress:
http://visforvoltage.org/blog/manfredbartz/13540

Matt

I would like to use the 90 ahr but the only way I can think of fitting them in is to lay them on there side perpendicular to the tray and stack them. They should fit 5x front to back. The 60 ahr should fit in pretty easy though. The voltage is different from the CALB cells so I am wondering how many I would need?

they're the same voltage as the CALB

minimum cell count is 40, max is not really known but highest I have heard of is 45 cells (I personally have run 44 cells before)

fitting 40 of those 90Ah cells in is ambitious, maybe make a mockup before actually buying them

Matt

Hi Martin,

Sorry, only just saw this post.

You can convert with 40Ah, anything more and you will need a different
charger.
a 10A 153v TC Charger is ~US$500, so not the end of the world

To keep the Runke charger you will need to keep the temp sensors - if they get damaged the charger won't work.

A cycle analyst is not necessary, though useful anyway as the original fuel
guage will still work (assuming with 40Ah).

I'm happy to sell the kit without BMS or fuse, it would really then only
consist of some plastic spacers, a light bulb and a tube of noalox battery
paste. (~$200 + shipping)

I haven't used an Elithion before, if using the original charger you have
to be sure the continuous discharge from the battery is less than ~10mA,
otherwise the fuel guage will go progressively more out of sync and the
battery will eventually get over discharged.

I haven't looked at any wifi options, and won't likely in the near future
(too many projects...)

regards,
Matt

Is the Runke problem with larger than a 40Ah pack due to the fact that the charger stops when 40Ah have gone into it rather than being controlled by the pack voltage?

If you start with the fuel guage being empty, the most the Runke (or ESD charger running nimh firmware) will put out is 32Ah (CP stage) + ~3Ah (CC and EQ stage).

once the fuel guage is full (32Ah is full scale), the charger stops.

If so, isn't there a way to restart the charger (eg via a simple, plug-in mains timer) and fool the electronics into thinking there is less energy in the pack than there already is?

regrettably no
if you restart the charger it just shuts down again as the fuel guage is showing full.
the only way is to reset the fuel guage.

There are two ways to do that:
1) use the usb CAN adapter and a laptop
2) hold the voltage down below 115v for a period of time

the later is possible with a contactor and resistor, in theory at least.

Matt

So, using the NiMh charger firmware, the only advantage to having 40Ah of Li instead
of 30 of NiMh is that you get a full 32Ah energy (and comensurate improvement in range), 10% better acceleration due to reduced voltage sag and lower pack weight; 65kg (Li) Vs 90kg (Ni), and as the cells are not stressed due to only using 80% of their max capcity, a long service life, assuming a good BMS?

If so then, actually, that's a pretty good improvent, really!

I assume the 32Ah limit is software based?

I have my old ESD charger which has a blown thermistor if you are interested I could post it for post cost only...

Hi Martin,

acceleration improvement is greater than you think - lower voltage sag means the controller draws more current, so the power increase can be very substantial (on a 25 deg day with CALB 40Ah cells you would be looking at a peak of 220A @ 126v)

you much of an improvement depends somewhat upon how good or bad your nimh battery was

being able to consistently get 32Ah without experiencing disappearing bars is primary advantage of going lithium though.

the 32Ah limit is indeed software based - no way to get around it with a Runke/EVPS charger.
aside from switching to a TC Charger of course (for around US$500 if buying directly from china)

I have a bit of a pile of dead ESD chargers - I haven't really got a plan for them, they're too hard to fix.
I have a few ideas but suffer from too many projects

fixing MC's is a higher priority at the moment, due to their expense and lack of viable alternatives

Matt